Tuesday, June 8, 2010

Saved By Grace


I approach this subject with a desire to do it justice, while at the same time, keeping reverence for the great sacrifice of our Savior. This is a subject that is discussed by many Christians, but many of us differ in our understanding. I hope I can give a clear explanation of our view of this great subject.

Of the Savior's atoning sacrifice, the Prophet Isaiah wrote, "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." Isaiah 53:4-5 When the Savior was in the Garden of Gethsemane, He took upon Himself the sins of the world. This was a task that no mere mortal could do. But Jesus Christ was the literal begotten son of God, and therefore had divine characteristics that enabled Him to perform this great sacrifice on our behalf. He himself was without sin, being the one true sacrifice without blemish. In modern day scripture the Savior said of that suffering, "Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit— and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink— Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men." (Doctrine and Covenants 19:18,19)

The Prophet Alma, in the Book of Mormon had this to say about this great sacrifice willing given by Jesus Christ. "9 For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made.
10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.
13 Therefore, it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice, and then shall there be, or it is expedient there should be, a stop to the shedding of blood; then shall the law of Moses be fulfilled; yea, it shall be all fulfilled, every jot and tittle, and none shall have passed away.
14 And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal." (Alma 34:9-14) In Old Testament times, the Children of Israel offered sacrifices of animals as a symbol of the sacrifice Jesus would later make for all mankind. His was the last and ultimate, and atones for the sins of all the world.

Many Christians today debate about the principle of being saved by "grace" or saved by "works". We believe that without the atonement of Jesus Christ, no one can be saved. No amount of repentance, no amount of good works could ever save a man without the atoning grace of Jesus Christ. It is only through that grace that we can be saved. Faith in the atonement Jesus Christ is the fundamental basic principle of the gospel. We must believe if we are to be saved.

But I think the question must be asked, "What are we saved from?". Because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, we are saved from death. Because of Him, all mankind will be resurrected, whether they be good or whether they be evil. We are all saved from death. In addition, the atonement of Jesus Christ can save us from sorrow. In the Book of Mormon the prophet Alma prophesied of the Savior, "11 And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.
12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities." (Alma 7:11,12) Because He has suffered for us, He understands our pain and can comfort us in our troubles.

Secondly we are given the opportunity to be saved from sin. Some say that belief alone qualifies us for that redeeming power. But I submit that as James taught, "faith without works is dead". (James 2:20) Our actions are an extension of our faith. If we say we believe, but then do not follow what the Savior has asked us to do, is our faith indeed true faith? It is only when we conform our lives to what He has taught that we actually demonstrate our faith.

James went on to teach, "shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18) We demonstrate our faith by our actions. The Savior commanded, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48) To "be" connotes more than just a thought. It is more than just a belief. To "be" connotes an action, a "becoming". Repentance allows us the opportunity to change incorrect behavior, and become more Christlike. In addition, repentance brings great joy and growth to the soul. What a blessing it is in my life to be able to correct the wrongs that I have done. It not only helps free me from guilt, but helps me to learn so that I won't commit the same error again. Sometimes this is a life long process, but it is a process that brings great spiritual growth in to my life.

Elder James E. Faust taught, "The Atonement and the Resurrection accomplish many things. The Atonement cleanses us of sin on condition of our repentance. Repentance is the condition on which mercy is extended. After all we can do to pay to the uttermost farthing and make right our wrongs, the Savior’s grace is activated in our lives through the Atonement, which purifies us and can perfect us. Christ’s Resurrection overcame death and gave us the assurance of life after death. Said He: “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.” 27 The Resurrection is unconditional and applies to all who have ever lived and ever will live. 28 It is a free gift. President John Taylor described this well when he said: “The tombs will be opened and the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and they shall come forth, they who have done good to the resurrection of the just, and they who have done evil to the resurrection of the unjust.”

The Prophet Nephi taught, "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."
(2 Nephi 25:23) It is crucial that we do all we can do to demonstrate our faith by keeping the commandments and repenting. But in the end, it is the grace of Jesus Christ that saves us.

64 comments:

Rick B said...

Mormonism teaches Grace PLUS WORKS, Notice The works part that you did not touch. Sadly Many LDS avoid mentiong the works part.

Read what after all we can do means.:

'After all we can do' includes extending our best effort. 'After all we can do' includes living His commandments. 'After all we can do' includes loving our fellowmen and praying for those who regard us as their adversary. 'After all we can do' means clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and giving 'succor [to] those who stand in need of [our] succor' (Mosiah 4:15)—remembering that what we do unto one of the least of God's children, we do unto Him. (See Matt. 25:34-40; D&C 42:38.) 'After all we can do' means leading chaste, clean, pure lives, being scrupulously honest in all our dealings and treating others the way we would want to be treated. ("After All We Can Do," Christmas Devotional, Salt Lake City, Utah, Dec. 9, 1982; quoted in Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson.)" ("Savior accomplished atoning sacrifice through His grace," LDS Church News, 02/03/96, page 14.)

“President Harold B. Lee treated the topic of working out one's salvation in one of his books, Stand Ye in Holy Places: 'We hear much from some persons of limited understanding about the possibility of one's being saved by grace alone. But it requires the explanation of another prophet to understand the true doctrine of grace as he explained in these meaningful words: "For," said this prophet, "we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Ne. 25:23.) Truly we are redeemed by the atoning blood of the Savior of the world, but only after each has done all he can to work out his own salvation.'"("Work out salvation with fear and trembling," LDS Church News, 09/14/91, page 14.)

“As is the case with all gospel principles, the doctrine of individual accountability grows out of the atoning sacrifice of Christ. Teaching these principles, Nephi testified that we are saved by grace, but only "after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23.) It is by the grace of Christ that we have granted to us the materials of life with which we can build, but God does not do the building for us. The responsibility of building with those materials is ours. The plan of salvation is in a large measure a do-it-yourself project” (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Seeking the Spirit, page 99.)

Rick b said...

Cont,
“In the plan of salvation God does for human beings only what they cannot do for themselves. Man must do all he can for himself. The doctrine is that we are saved by grace, 'after all we can do' (2 Ne. 25:23)” (Robert J. Matthews, A Bible! A Bible!, page 186.)

“To explain how much confidence we should have in God, were I using a term to suit myself, I should say implicit confidence. I have faith in my God, and that faith corresponds with the works I produce. I have no confidence in faith without works. My faith is, when we have done all we can, then the Lord is under obligation, and will not disappoint the faithful; he will perform the rest” (President Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, page 155.)


Now another reason I ask about Grace is this, Mormonism teaches that their is no forgiveness for those who commit murder.




Doctrine and Covenants 42:18 says, "…he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."

In that vein, Joseph Fielding Smith taught, "Murderers Denied Vicarious Ordinances…we do not have the privilege of performing the ordinances for murderers who shed innocent blood, nor for those who take their own lives…If we find in our record one of this kind, we should pass him by and not attempt to do the work for him…" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:192)


I feel sorry for the Mormons and the bondage they are under. there is really no hopeful outcome for latter-day saints through vicarious temple ordinances.

according to what they teach, there is no hope for the person who commits murder (according to Mormon doctrine, doctrines of salvation, miracle of forgiveness and teachings of the prophet). Yet I wonder--have the Mormons ever given any thought to what happened to J Smith? In D and C 135:4 he says his conscience is void of offence towards God and all men, and he says "I shall die innocent." Yet in history of the church 7:102-103 it says J Smith killed 2 people. Please explain how that is dying innocent and with out offence to God or man.

Please also explain where Joseph went if a murderer cannot be forgiven? The Bible teaches us God took Moses home, yet he killed a man in cold blood in exodus. king David had Bathsheba's husband murdered so he could have her, yet God said in acts 13:22 "David is a man after my own heart." 1st John 1:9 says "if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." the "He" is God. Murder falls under both sin and unrighteousness. Titus 1:2 says God cannot lie; therefore there is only bondage according to Mormonism.

Rick B said...

Cont,
1st peter 3:15 tells us to give every man an answer for the hope that lies within us. I ask where or what is that hope within Mormonism if there is no salvation for certain people, no forgiveness for certain sins?

I also see no grace in Mormonism because here is a list of works we must do, If we dont do these we wont attain the highest heaven, so how is that grace?

The Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. He gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). It says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,


1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.



Notice it says "Obedience to the Word of Wisdom." Yet Many LDS members do not follow this. Also we read in Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. We are not repentant if we don't sustain the authorities of the church and don't love the lord and our fellow man. Yet again many LDS do not meet this requirement.

If we do not do these things, we cannot be saved, Grace is free and comes as a result of God loving us, Not because of the works we do. Rick b

Inklings said...

Rick, I had the feeling in the middle of the night last night to make one more comment before I leave town this morning. I am the oldest sister to Delirious, Nene, Twist, Sticks and Mr. Giggles. (Not in that order.) I think what I am saying speaks for us all.
We believe in God the Eternal Father. We love Him. We know He loves us. We know He is aware of us and our lives. We believe He is the literal Father of our spirits. We also love our Savior and eldest brother, Jesus Christ. We are eternally grateful to Him for His atonement. We also love the Holy Ghost. He guides us to righteous paths, He warns us of danger, He is an important part of our lives.
We have a testimony of these things that will never be changed by someone trying to argue us out of it. We will never leave the LDS church. Never. We are unshakeable and unmoveable. You are wasting your breath....well, um....typing fingers :0)....to try to persuade us to do otherwise. We have each felt a spiritual confirmation that we are on the right path. We are greatful to know what we know and to have a prophet to guide us in these troubled days. We love and sustain him also.
So I suggest that you do not trouble yourself any longer to try to sway us to your way of thinking.
However, we do have some common ground. Delirious did not lie to you when she said our mother is one of the worst cooks in the world. You know how some teenagers rebel. We all "rebelled" by becoming good cooks, so we have food in common with you. We are not at your skill level, because I doubt any of us is ever going to make a wedding cake for a friend, so we have things to learn from you about cooking.
I say we suspend the arguments about religion, since you are not going to be able to sway us, and we are not going to be able to sway you, and discuss food instead. We can be cooking friends. :0)

Delirious said...

Yes Rick, every quote you used by church authorities is consistent with what I wrote. We do believe in keeping the commandments. We believe God gave them to us because He wanted us to keep them. He didn't give them to us for us to ignore. And yes, He expects something on our part. The gift is free...totally free....but you have to make the effort to enable it in your life. Simply wishing we are perfect doesn't make us so. We have to act. I stand by what I said, and I thank God for the commandments, and for the gift...the wonderful gift, of repentance; the chance to overcome the evils that the adversary throws at me, because I know that just believing, without acting, will never making me Christlike.

Delirious said...

And yes, Inklings is right too....we all LOVE food, which is often evidenced by our size. ;) And we all are good cooks because we had to become so out of self preservation in our home. ;) I think we can learn a lot from you. And I am definitely going to be making Little Debbie snack cakes. :D

Rick b said...

Inklings,
Honestly I dont think you will change due to what I say, but I cannot change you, only God can.

I will still say stuff because I know and meet mormons who claim I will never change, yet 20 years later they had their eyes opened and then said JS was a fraud.

Then I believe that their are people we bloggers call lurkers who read but never reply. I want them to have both sides and then decide for themselves.

Jesus told the religious leaders in the Gospel of John that the ONLY WORK WE MUST DO is to believe.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


You could re-word it and say, the LDS asked Jesus what works shall we do? Jesus said the ONLY WORK to do is to believe.

Then the Bible says, WE ARE SAVED by GRACE, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Notice it says, NOT OF YOURSELVES.

This goes against the BoM.

Now as food goes, we can be friends and talk food, but we both have food blogs to talk food about in those areas.

What might surprise everyone is, I have friends that are LDS, I can talk honestly about our differences but yet still be friends. I tend to find it is the LDS who choose to not be friends because they do not want to hear what they believe is wrong.

Jesus told his disciples they were wrong yet they still were friends. Judas was stealing from Jesus and then betrayed Him, Yet Jesus still was His friend. Rick b

Delirious said...

Once again, I think James says it best.
"14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:14-26)

Our works are the outward expression of our faith. If we do not the works...our faith is dead, and has no effect in our lives. We must demonstrate our faith. But the point you are missing, that we learn from the Bible, is that no matter what works we do, without the grace of Christ, they would have no effect in saving us. It is only through His grace that we can be saved. But that doesn't negate the importance of acting on our faith.

Rick b said...

The thing that you guys miss is this, You think and believe that we are saved by grace plus works, and you use James to support that. We are saved by Grace alone.

If we do not do works according to James we are still saved. If I confess Christ then die with in a day or even week I am saved, But in Mormonism that is not true, that is why people on the death bed cannot be saved.

As far as James goes it's a matter of being saved, thats why we do good works. It's like this, As a parent, our kids help us out and clean the house because they love us and show us they love us in that way, by helping out. They do not do dishes or help out because we tell them if they do not help we will kick them out or no longer love them.

Then as I pointed out, Jesus said, the only work is to believe on Him whom God sent and we are saved by Grace alone, NOT OF OURSELVES. So if you teach James teaches a works based salvation then Jesus lied and we are then saved by grace plus works and that denys what the verse teaches in Eph.

Plus their are many verses that teach we are under the curse if we try and live by works and the law, and the law is a hard school master. Jesus said my yoke is easy and my burden is light. All LDS I have spoken with admit the burden of keeping the law and keeping all the works is impossible to do. Rick b

Delirious said...

This is one of those situations that I mentioned before that turns in to "Bible bashing". You approve of your Bible verses, but not mine. I give a Bible scripture, you give yours, but we still disagree. This is precisely why we need the Book of Mormon. It acts as a second witness to the teachings of the Bible. But one thing I know, and that is that I have been blessed from God by following my course. Why would I choose a different path? I know I'm doing what God has asked me to do. I think I have said all I want to say on this issue.

Rick b said...

I'm not bashing the Bible. The problem is, you say the BoM gives us added scripture and clears things up. Thats not true, it teaches contrary to the Bible, The BoM and Bible contradict each other.

Then when you have over 4,000 changes to the BoM and you have changes in every edition, I know because I own the 1920 edition and the newest edition, Their are changes in all of them and zero footnotes stating this.

Then If the Bible teaches Grace alone not of yourself, Jesus said No works Just believe, The law is bondage and only brings a curse, then that should tell you that if thats true, then it is you that does not understand the Verses in James.

Yet if you think that James teaches works, then Jesus lied and so did Paul or if they did not lie, then they really did not understand what they were talking about. Then many verses in the OT allude to zero works. I know you think I am mean and you dont like talking about it, but at least think about this.

What if I am right and you are wrong? Hell is real and being told by God, Your going to hell for all of eternity that is really a serious bummer.

But if your right, then from everything I have been ever told by the LDS it seems really likly that we both will end up in the second heaven. You do your works, and we will end up in the same place together. Remember, The Bible teaches Search the scriptures to know if these things are true, ACTS 17:11.

The Bible never says, Pray to see if these things are true. Rick b

Looney said...

Delirious, thanks for the statement. I still think that this is well within the teachings of the vast majority of evangelical Christians.

For Rick, I would note that purist Calvinists, Arminianists, Orthodox Catholics, and modern Catholics all mutually condemn each others' notion of salvation by grace as heretical.

Rick b said...

Looney said I would note that purist Calvinists, Arminianists, Orthodox Catholics, and modern Catholics all mutually condemn each others' notion of salvation by grace as heretical.

They simply prove the Bible correct when it teaches that false prophets and teachers have gone out among us, and that people waht their itching eras tickled and they choose to believe lies rather than the truth.

Jesus made it clear, if you choose to say Jesus did not really say, like Satan said, Did God really say.....

Then thats yours and their choice, I would hate to be you guys standing before God on the day of your death trying to tell God He was wrong. Rick b

Looney said...

Rick, it sounds like your little group is the only one that has ever gotten "salvation by grace" right! What happens to all those who trust in Christ but just aren't smart enough to get all the subtle nuances of theology?

Rick b said...

Looney, It is not my little group that gets it right and everyone else is wrong.

The Church I go to teaches the Bible, Chapter by chapter, verse by verse.

Paul said, I have not shunned to declare the entire word of God. We follow that, many Churchs obnly teach certain topics over and over and some even avoid entire chapters of the Bible.

Also I let the Bible speak for it's self.

God Said HE places His Word Above His Name. If that is really true do you think He would allow His word to be corrput and flawed? The LDS do.

If Jesus said, The only WORK WE MUST DO is to believe, do you really believe then that we need to add works to that? The LDS do.

Paul said, If any Man or even an Angel teaches any other Gospel than the one I taught let him be damned to hell. We the LDS teach another gospel and much of what they teach goes against the Bible and what Paul teaches.

Then if you sit down and read the BoM and take out all the stuff that is found in the Bible that is pretty much word for word, then the rest of the BoM is lacking in any honest teaching.

Some like myself say that the BoM plaguriesd the Bible. The LDS claim it helps out the Bible, But Honestly why would God allow His word to be corrputed and then wait over 2,000 years to send some one along like JS, Then say word for word what mush of the Bible already says, Since it is word for word Copy, then I really do not need to hear it from the BoM, I can simply go with the Bible.

Thehn whats left from the BoM does not make things in the Bible more clear for me. Plus you need to look at all the Contrdictions between the BoM and the Bible. You can jump on me all you want, but if your honest which I suspect you will not be, you will simply avoid my questions, you need to ask yourself, Why do you jump on me like I am doing something wrong.

Yet you REFUSE!!!!!!!!!
To answer the problems I posed, Like why Does the Mormon PROPHET and 10th President of the Church say, If JS is a fraud he needs to be expoused.

Or why the D and C teaches to talk about these things. You still have not answered those.

Then the LDS like to try and claim, we never tell anyone they are wrong, Yet the BoM teaches their are only two churchs and one is the Church of the devil.

The LDS openly claim the RLDS and the FLDS are wrong and false, so they do what they claim I am doing, But we both know you and them will avoid that subject as well.

Then LDS might knock on doors or meet people on the street, they may never say what you believe is wrong, but it is implied that if the LDS are correct in what they teach and believe, then those of us that they meet on the street or at our house must think to ourselves or openly claim, what we believe is wrong if they are right.

So in a round about way, they teach or think we are wrong, why else would they send out missionarys? But why bother speaking with me, you clearly cannot handle talking to me which is evidneced by the fact you avoid answering direct questions posed to you. Rick B

Looney said...

Rick, so if I make any attempt not to sin as a Christian, then I am trusting in salvation by works? I suppose I could move nearby to San Francisco and join the gay community in order to prove that my faith is pure and untainted by works ... Is that what I need to do?

Rick b said...

I did not say that, My point is, According to the LDS theology we are saved by grace plus works, This means as I showed quotes and evidence, you must do works to be saved.

The Bible shows Jesus talking with the religious leaders and they say to Him,

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Who is right? Jesus or the LDS? If you say they can both be correct then explain how.

Then The LDS teach Grace plus works, But as I showed Eph Teaches it is grace alone, not by or with any works,

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Please explain how we can be saved by grace plus works according to the BoM, yet according to the Bible it is Grace only, not any works done by us.

Then according to LDS those on the death bed and in death row who commit murder cannot be saved because they have never done any good works. Yet according to the Bible they can be saved because works are not required. How is this not a different Gospel or a serious contradiction? Rick b

Delirious said...

I'm curious Rick as to whether or not you believe in a "judgment day". What is going to be judged?

Delirious said...

It's just amazing the depth of your misunderstanding about our religion Rick. You continue to say what we do and don't believe, but I would have to say that the majority of what you claim we believe is wrong. You continue to claim that the Book of Mormon says this or that, but your understanding of it is wrong. This may be why you have such a vendetta against us; you simply don't understand what we believe. You think you do...but you don't. I dont' say that to insult, but to try to explain to others who may wander along and read all of your misconceptions.

And I wish that I could explain all of your misunderstandings to you, but it is to such a level that it would take days. But my feeling is that if you can't even accept the basic core beliefs, then it's a high probability you won't accept the more deeper doctrine either anyway.

Rick b said...

The Bible teaches that it is appointed for a man to die once, then the Judgment.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

And

2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

The Bible also teaches that the Books will be opened and we will be Judged.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


You said You continue to say what we do and don't believe, but I would have to say that the majority of what you claim we believe is wrong. You continue to claim that the Book of Mormon says this or that,

Ok, Lets see here, I said the BoM teaches Grace plus works.

for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Ne. 25:23.)

I quoted it from the Bible, Where am I wrong?

J.F.M Teaches works and Christ is not enough, Nephi testified that we are saved by grace, but only "after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23.) It is by the grace of Christ that we have granted to us the materials of life with which we can build, but God does not do the building for us. The responsibility of building with those materials is ours. The plan of salvation is in a large measure a do-it-yourself project” (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Seeking the Spirit, page 99.)

How am I wrong? What am I missing?

I said Murders cannot have forgiveness, you seem to imply I am wrong, but the D and C and your prophet both teach other wise.

Doctrine and Covenants 42:18 says, "…he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."

In that vein, Joseph Fielding Smith taught, "Murderers Denied Vicarious Ordinances…we do not have the privilege of performing the ordinances for murderers who shed innocent blood, nor for those who take their own lives…If we find in our record one of this kind, we should pass him by and not attempt to do the work for him…" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:192)


Again, where am I wrong? What am I missing here? You made the claim I am wrong, please back it up. I backed up what I said. Rick b

Delirious said...

The Book of Mormon scriptures you quoted are consistent with the scriptures I quoted from James. We are saved by grace...no doubt about that. But we must obey, and we must repent. I was interested that you quoted Revelations 20:12, because that one specifically mentions that we will be judged by our works. "and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works" Works. We are judged according to our works according to this scripture. Do our works save us? The grace of Jesus Christ saves us, but we will be judged according to our works.

And this scripture is similar: "21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matt. 7:21-23
In this scripture, the person the Lord casts out is a person who professes to be a follower, and casts out devils, and does many wonderful things in the name of the Lord, but does NOT obey the will of the Lord. There will be many at the judgment day who will claim that they have followed the Lord, but their works will prove otherwise.

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Matt. 16:27

Delirious said...

You know, I would like to back up a minute. Because I think Looney made an excellent point that was bypassed. If belief in Jesus Christ is enough, and we risk offending Him by repenting or doing any sort of good works, then what does it matter if a person lives a sinful life?

Rick b said...

In Revelation it teaches that Books were opened and then another book was opened. You can have your name in the Book of Life which is from Grace, or you can be judged by your works which are written in the other books.

Do you know the OT? Have you ever read about the Cities of refuge? They were set up so if you accidentally killed someone, you could flee to the citi of refuge. You can enter the citi only in cases of manslaughter, not murder.

So as long as you abide in the citi, the avenger of blood cannot enter and kill you, yet if you walk out of the citi the avenger of blood could kill you. Also as long as the high priest lived you needed to stay in that citi, you could only leave free and clear after the high priest died. No works on our part.

Now how does this relate to Jesus? We killed Him, but He said on the Cross, Father forgive them for they know not what they do. Thats manslaughter. He is our Citi of refuge, as long as we abide in Him Satan cannot have us.

He also is our high priest, but He will never die, so we must abide in Him, No works are involved.

Then in the OT we have the serpent on the pole with Moses. The people that did not look at the serpent on the pole could not be saved. Jesus was lifted up on a cross just like the serpent on the pole was lifted up.

The Jews had in the law, Not to make a graven image and look upon it. But now they need to forgo the law and look upon it to be saved. The only thing they needed to do to be saved was look.

Now I said the BoM teaches certain things, and you said I do not know what I am talking about, so here you go.

1 Ne. 14: 10
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the bother is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.


I said that was in the BoM and guess what, it is. Now I said there were changes in the BoM with no foot notes added, here are just a few changes.

1830: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of God
Now: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God (11:18)

1830: Behold, the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father!
Now: Behold, the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father! (11:21)

1830: yea, the everlasting God was judged of the world
Now: yea, the Son of the everlasting God was judged of the world (11:32)

1830: …the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father…
Now: …the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father… (13:40)



Those are serious doctrinal changes and no foot notes that mention the changes were ever made. So where am I wrong, you said I was here is more evidence.

Rick b

Rick b said...

I forgot to add the entire chapter and verse, Those verse that I added that have been changed are found in 1st Nephi. Rick b

Looney said...

Rick, the term "mother of God" was used by the Catholics frequently throughout the middle ages. The distinction between "mother of God" and "mother of the Son of God" being non-existent in a Trinitarian framework.

Delirious said...

Rick, I almost have to laugh about all of the changes you mentioned. Because in our view, the meaning hasn't changed at all. Jesus Christ is the Son of God. But He is also a member of the Godhead, and is also God. In addition, He created this world, under the direction of the Father, so is also called "the Father" (father of this earth). And His atonement on our behalf also makes us His spiritual children, and Him our Father in that sense. So all of the statements are correct. Both versions are saying the same thing. I know there have been minor grammatical changes to make certain verses clearer, and I don't have a problem with that. The doctrine is still the same. Why does that bother you? The Bible has gone through modern translations and you don't seem bothered by that. Frankly, I've had people of other religions come to my door and share scriptures and I had to think long and hard to even recognize which scripture they were quoting because their modern version was so different. But why is this even part of our discussion? What does the grammatical changes of the Book of Mormon have to do with this discussion? I think it's a sort of bait and switch of topic.

Your explanation or your beliefs was interesting, to say the least, but does not dismiss the scriptures I quoted that specifically say that we will be judged by our works. Your explanation, in my mind is not an excuse for leaving off repentance. Christ is indeed our refuge, His grace helps us to overcome the effects of sin. He is also our refuge from sorrow and temptation. That doesn't mean we have a free pass to sin.

Your reply to Looney's initial question about living a sinful life was, "I did not say that". But in fact, this is the very essence of your beliefs. In fact, if we follow your beliefs, we can say we accept Jesus, then live as sinful a life as we want. When I have talked to people before who have this same belief, they have said, "Well, if we accept Jesus, we wont' want to sin." Frankly, I don't see any guarantee there. In fact, I think you have the most convenient religion in the world. Just say the words, and believe in your heart that you accept the Savior, then you are free to live however you want. With this belief, you can enter heaven having done any sin you wish. I could never accept that teaching in a million years.

Rick b said...

Their was no bait and switch, You asked why I brought up the changed verses.

I brought them up because I said their were no foot notes mentioning the changes, you said in a round about way, everything I said was wrong, so I was only posting them so people could see them and not say, where are they? Rick says they exist but show no evidence.

Then I never once said, we simply believe, then we are saved, then we can live a sinful life and live as we please.

I said we simply believe and works play no part of our salvation.

When Jesus died on the cross, He said it is finished, He did not say, I completed my part now you do yours.

Again the Bible teaches, Grace alone and not by our works. The Bible does teach we cannot say I am saved so therefore I can live a most sinful life style.

Works do come as an out pouring of our love for Jesus, we are saved so then we do good works because we Love Jesus, NOT WE DO GOOD WORKS TO BE SAVED, That is the difference.

The Bible teaches that if your going to follow the law, then you must follow all of it and it will be a curse.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:


This says you will NOT be JUSTIFIED by keeping the law.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Keeping the law is doing the works.

We are Justified by grace alone with no works involved.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Christ is the end of the law
Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

If you really want to do the law and fulfill the law, then the only work if you want to call it that is LOVE,

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Matthew 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rick b

Delirious said...

You never said that we can live however we want as long as we simply believe, but that is at the very core of your beliefs. To me, this is one of the greatest heresies that came about as a result of the apostasy. And the devil laughs because if he can get people to believe this, he has lured a few more people off course.

Rick b said...

I think you really misunderstand what I am saying. I again never said, we can believe in Christ, then run out and sin like never before.

I am of the belief that one can lose your salvation. I believe their are many verse that either teach that or allude to it.

I said we are saved by grace alone apart from works, which the Bible teaches. But the when we do, do any good work, it is not to obtain or keep our salvation or even add to it, it is because we love Jesus and want to serve Him out of Love. Rick b

Delirious said...

Just out of curiosity Rick, under what conditions do you believe a person could lose their salvation?

Rick b said...

Read Rev 22:18-19

Basically it says, if you add to or remove from my word I (God) Will remove your name from the Book of Life. The Bible also says, that if our name is in the book of life we are saved, if it is not we are not saved.

So if your name is in the Book and you are saved, but then God removes your name, then it seems you are no longer saved.

Also you feel the changes made to the BoM are minor and not important. Did you ever stop and think that the way JS translated the Book was by sticking his face in a hat ant telling his buddy what he saw, his buddy wrote down the letter that JS saw and if it was written down correctly it would disappear, but if it was written down wrong it would remain until it was written correctly. So that is evidence that the book should have never needed a single change.

Add to that, JS said, the BoM is the most correct book of any, if thats true why all the changes? Then the changes I gave were only from one edition to another, the sad part is, we have changes from the 1830 to the 1920 edition, then changes in the 1920 edition to the 1979 edition, then to the 1981 and then to the newest one, How many times must it be changed? Then no foot notes noting any change has ever been made.

To me thats deceitful. All these changes and no mention of it. Rick b

Delirious said...

This sounds like a bait and switch again Rick. Joseph was specifically commanded to not show the plates to anyone for a time. So sometimes to make things easier, he would put them in a hat so that only he could see them, and the person transcribing could not. The changes are minor, and the Book of Mormon still stands as the most correct book.

But let's try to stay on topic. So you said that only the person who takes away from the word of God loses his salvation. Let me relate a incident closer home to me. My neighbor grew up Lutheran. According to my understanding, Martin Luther is the main person who came up with the teaching that all that is needed for salvation is to believe. As my neighbor grew in to adulthood, she and her husband decided that they wanted to raise their child in the Lutheran church, so took him there to be baptized. They found a pastor that they really liked. They felt they had found a congregation with whom they were comfortable. But not too much time passed before he was indicted on charges of child molestation. Is that pastor saved? He accepts Jesus Christ as His Savior. And what if he hadn't been caught? Would he still be saved? Or would he be judged according to this act, and lose his salvation? Because this is a black and white issue. Either a person can accept Jesus as their Savior, and still sin, or they can't. You said, "I again never said, we can believe in Christ, then run out and sin like never before." Which is it? Either we are or we are not judged by our actions. You say a person can't go out and sin, but the very essence of your belief allows them this opportunity. That pastor certainly accepted Jesus as His Savior. And I'm sure that he felt he was saved because of it. You can't have it both ways. Either we are judged by our works, or we are not. I prefer to believe the scriptures I quoted from the Bible that say we are judged by our works.

Rick b said...

Not everyone that says they are believers or know Jesus do. I would say that the pastor who molested someone was probably not a believer. Just because a person claims they know Christ does not.

The Bible teaches that the Devil can come in the form of an angel of light, so if the devil comes to you as an angel and says He is a believer, well I guess we can safely say he is lying and is not a true believer.

Also the Bible tells us that false prophets and deceivers will come. Do you think these people will say, I am a follower of Christ, but then tell us what we want to hear so they can device us?

I do not believe the only way to lose your salvation is to add to or change Gods word.

Jesus said, John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

I believe as the Bible says, if we Abide in Jesus, He will abide in us, But if for some strange reason we choose to stop abiding in him, he will no longer abide in us.

we must continue in the faith, so if we choose to no longer continue are we still saved? I say no, Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

This verse really says it all for me, 1Titus 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

The Spirit says that some shall depart from the faith, That tells me people walk away from the faith.

Now to the issue of bait and switch, Again no bait and switch from me, I did mention verse that were changed and I was adding more info about how there should not be any single change since it is taught by LDS that JS translated the verses in a hat and if it was translated correctly the letter would disappear and if it was not correct, then it would stay will it was correct. So according to that, their should be zero changes. Rick b

Delirious said...

Sorry, but when it all comes down to it, you can't say that the Pastor was not a believer. In fact, I think he did believe. I think he believed so much that according to his belief he knew he wouldn't be judged by his actions, so it didnt' matter if he committed that sin or not. In this particular case, the sin was very grievous. But I could have used an example with a less serious sin. But the point of the matter is that we all have sin. The god you describe to me is a god of mercy, but he is not a god of justice. For God to be God, He must be just. It is not just that a person who has committed sin, even though they were a believer, should be allowed the same glory in heaven as the great prophets of old. If God ignores justice, and does not demand consequences for breaking the law; the very law HE gave, then He ceases to be God! Yes, God is merciful, and the atonement allows us the chance to repent, and overcome sin. But God is also just, and will not allow someone to go to heaven who has not repented of the wrongs they have committed.

Rick b said...

If God ignores justice, and does not demand consequences for breaking the law; the very law HE gave, then He ceases to be God!

I do not agree because what did God do before the law was given? The law did not exist until He created it with Abraham.

Then God shows us grace so he does not give us justice, because justice would be that we all go to hell and get what we deserve. Grace gice us more than mercy, mercy would be letting us go, but grace lets us Go and then allows us to be Gods friends and children.

Then I also do not believe that pastor was saved, Remember it is God not me that says, Not everyone that says, LORD, LORD, Does His will or even knows Him.

Just because someone claims to be a believer or claims to know Him does not make it true.

Even LDS teach that they are from God but yet the RLDS and the FLDS are not. LDS dop not believe RLDS and FLDS or the many other off shoots are believers, yet they all claim to be. Rick b

Geoff said...

Rick,

I'm just curious: What do you think it means to be saved?

Thank you,
G

PS -Instead of telling believers what you *think* they believe, it might be best for you to tell others what YOU believe. For true interfaith dialogue to continue, there are three rules that should be respected by all:
1. Get your information from believers, from those who know (apostates / outsiders do not know, even if they *think* they do).
2. Compare your "bests" with their "bests" - not your best with their worst.
3. Reserve a little "holy envy" in your heart for something they do well that you do not.

Rick B said...

Geoff, To be saved according to the Bible is simple. Confess with your Mouth that Jesus is Lord and you will be saved.

But yet at the same Time Not everyone who says, Lord Lord is saved at least according to Jesus himself.

Then I add that Delirious thinks that pastor was saved while I do not, but yet LDS claim RLDS and FLDS are not true believers, yet they claim to read the Bible, BoM and follow the Prophets.

Then I get my info as sourced from LDS books and teachings. Rick b

Delirious said...

Whoa Rick! I never said that Pastor was saved. I said that according to YOUR beliefs you must allow that he is saved IF he accepts Jesus. I believe he does accept Jesus "with his mouth". In fact, I'm sure he does. But that doesn't save him, does it.

But Rick, you didn't answer Geoff's question. What does it mean to be saved. You explained HOW to be saved, but not what the word "saved" means.

Rick B said...

Sorry if I misquoted you, I was trying to go from memory and and try and re-read every post trying to find that again.

As far as Jeff goes, Saved means your going to heaven, not hell, saved means you believe in Jesus as Lords and Saviour. But lets be clear here.

The Bible does state PER Jesus saying it, Not all who claim Jesus are saved, IE going to heaven. Why is that, We as the Bible states, not everyone that Claims the name of Jesus really means it.

But how can you say it and not mean it? Simple, Just as the Bible States. You believe in a false Jesus, things about Jesus that are not taught in the Bible, A different Jesus or as Paul said, A different Gospel that he never preached.

You follow the false teachings and false prohpets and leaders. As I said in another post, Why do Mormons teach RLDS and FLDS are not really saved, or they are not Christians, They believe the Bible, the BoM and the Prophets, yet according to LDS they are not.

Yet when Christians say your not Christians you get upset yet you do to the FLDS And the RLDS what you claim we do to you, but when it comes from LDS it's ok.

Goeff said For true interfaith dialogue to continue, there are three rules that should be respected by all:
1. Get your information from believers, from those who know (apostates / outsiders do not know, even if they *think* they do).
2. Compare your "bests" with their "bests" - not your best with their worst.
3. Reserve a little "holy envy" in your heart for something they do well that you do not.


Do you follow this when if you teach FLDS and RLDS are not real LDS? Do you even attempt to try and talk with them? Did you ever think maybe they are the true church and have it right and your wrong? Just curious because I see a huge double stranded among the LDS verses the FLDS and the RLDS. Rick b

Geoff said...

Hi Rick,

Thank you for defining the word "saved" as far as you understand it: "Saved means your (sic) going to heaven, not hell, saved means you believe in Jesus as Lords (sic) and Saviour."

Of course, this answer begs a follow-up question: What does the word heaven mean for you? What do you understand hell to be?

For members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the word saved can have several meanings. I would encourage you to study the following address by Elder Dallin H. Oaks, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, titled "Have You Been Saved?" You will find it here: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=83db605ff590c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

From that address: "As Latter-day Saints use the words saved and salvation, there are at least six different meanings. According to some of these, our salvation is assured—we are already saved. In others, salvation must be spoken of as a future event (e.g., 1 Cor. 5:5) or as conditioned upon a future event (e.g., Mark 13:13). But in all of these meanings, or kinds of salvation, salvation is in and through Jesus Christ."

Again, I just want to hear from you what YOU believe, not what you *think* Latter-day Saints believe.

Thank you!
Geoff

Rick b said...

Geoff said Again, I just want to hear from you what YOU believe, not what you *think* Latter-day Saints believe.

Its not a matter of what I think mormons believe, I know what you believe, and no it's not from reading so called anti mormon books or talking with ex mormons.

With out being to long winded, I have read all 4 standard works, I own the 1958 and 1966 Mormon Doctrine, The Original History of the church and the newer version, plus other official LDS books and have been to 4 services at the local Mormon Church and one was the GC.

Went to SLC for 2 weeks and toured the entire temple and posted over 500 posts on the fair lds board.

I know from talking with active lds that they cannot agree on every thing, and I get my info from LDS sources and LDS themselves.

Now as to Heaven I know you guys teach 3 different levels and the highest branches into another 3 and your hell is outer darkness and you pretty much deny the version of hell that us Christians teach.

As to What I believe about Heaven, the Bible really mentions hell more than heaven and on the topic of heaven, it says that God will create a new heavens and earth and does not give details as to what we will be doing.

As for hell, hell is only a holding tank and hell will be tossed into the lake of fire that burns forever without end. Rick b

Looney said...

Rick, 2 Corinthians 12:14 says:

"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven."

So the Bible teaches at least three levels of heaven. As for hell, Christians have taught many things over the centuries, while today's Christians don't teach it at all.

Do you think someone can know Christ yet be thoroughly confused or ignorant of these things? I do hope it is possible, because I readily admit to knowing very little about heaven or hell. On the other hand, if what I think I know is wrong will that exclude me from heaven?

Rick b said...

Looney, The LDS use that verse to build a complete doctrine and talk in great detail about who will be in each heaven and exactly how to get in, that verse does not teach any of that.

The 3 heavens that verse is talking about is the air in the sky where the birds fly, then the heavens where the moon and stars are, then the heaven where God and the angels are.

Also how can the mormons use that verse to go into great detail as to what heaven is like when not only does that verse not say it, but the Apostle Paul said he went to heaven and he was NOT ALLOWED to tell us what it was like nor could words describe?

Even though Christians today avoid the subject of hell not all do, I do not and neither does any Calvary Chapel that I am aware of. As to being confused, their really is nothing to be confused about, the Bible is clear, God will create a new heavens and earth after the 1000 years is over and it does not teach what will be going on their or how we will live, so no point talking about that.

Where the Bible is silent, we should be also. Then the Bible is very clear about hell, it's nothing more than a holding tank until the final judgment, then Hell and even death will be cast into the lake of fire that burns FOREVER and everyone in it will be tormented night and day with out end. Seems very clear to me.

Then if you get it wrong or are confused by it, well I'm not aware that it is a salvation issue, But if your ignorant over simple things, you might be the same over the bigger things. Rick b

Delirious said...

We actually do not build a complete doctrine around one scripture, we build it around modern revelation. This is a key element of the living church. God speaks, not spake, and leads the church today with current, day to day guidance. He loves the people today as much as He loved the people of olden times, and continues to reveal His will, just as He did in times of old. So you are correct, some of this information isn't found in the Bible. And if I had to put my finger on one doctrine that makes me believe that this church is true, it would have to be the doctrine that we have a living prophet who receives modern revelation. And please don't quote the scripture from the Bible about false prophets, because if there are false prophets, there have to be true ones too.

You don't accept our religion. I totally get that. But I'm telling you, that I would risk my eternal salvation by denying what the Holy Ghost has already confirmed to me. This is the living church, and there are many doctrines that have been revealed in this dispensation. You have your free agency to accept or reject it. But remember this council from the Pharisee Gamaliel about attacking other peoples' religion: "Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." Acts 5:38, 39 If you chart the growth and progress of our church, it doesn't fit under the category of coming "to nought".

Rick b said...

I have a question? You claim you have on going revelation, well you guys claim you or should I say your prophet received revelation about what heaven is like, how there are 3 heavens and things along that lines.

So why would Paul say he was not allowed to speak about it but then God waits 2000 years and then speaks about it?

Or why would God tell us about heaven and things that in the grand scheme of things really amounts to nothing but yet your prophet seems unable to receive revelation to clear up some big things, like why did JS give 9 "NINE" Different first vision accounts that span years and totally contradict each other.

Like I saw one person, then I saw 2 people, then I saw no one but only heard voices, etc.

There are other doctrinal issues like Adam God or Blood Atonement, or BY Claiming GOD SPOKE to Him saying BLACKS will NEVER be able to hold the priest hood but now they due. These are serious issues that your prophets seems unable to get a word from God about to clear up these issues, but yet he get a word from God over what heaven is like.

Knowing what heaven is like will not save me, Knowing your church is the true church by answering questions is more likely to save me, but these are only a few reasons why I do not believe your church is true and your prophets are false.

Then when these questions come up, LDS can only resort to saying I am being mean and hateful or I am only attacking your church, but they dont want to deal with the bigger issues. Rick b

Geoff said...

Hi Rick,

Again, I am not interested in what you *think* I believe, I simply asked you to share what you believe. You could have a much more enlightening conversation with everyone on this blog if you would simply share what you believe, and then allow others to do the same.

I hope at some point you would be willing to ask questions in order to better understand something you may not understand, much like I have been doing with you.

Thank you again for responding to my questions and briefly including what you believe. I would appreciate it if you would expound upon your beliefs, not what you suppose members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe. Perhaps you could share some of your favorite Bible verses on salvation, heaven, and hell that are the base of your beliefs?

Did you read the article I referred you to? Does it help you understand a little better about what we believe regarding salvation?

Thank you,
Geoff

Rick b said...

Geoff.
If you think I am wrong when I state things like, LDS hae told me this or that, you say I am telling you what you believe, but if I am wrong please tell me exactly how, otherwise from everything I read by your church tells me what you believe.

Then you said I hope at some point you would be willing to ask questions in order to better understand something you may not understand

You just started talking with me, But as to asking questions I have either asked questions or pointed out scripture or things your leaders have said to Delirious and it gets to the point where she says, I'm tired of talking to you, i'm done.

I tell her it is more a matter of she cannot answer me, not that she does not want to. If your curious you can look over the newest topic covering the WoW, I pointed out how LDS only follow the dont drink tea or coffee part, but the rest they ignore. After I pointed that out she said she was done talking to me.

And it is things like that, that I then point out why I think you guys are portrayed like you are. You guys tend to accuse us Christians of only being hateful or attacking your beliefs, but then when we ask questions then we are accused of attacking and not wanting to hear the truth. Rick b

Geoff said...

First of all, happy Father's day!

Are you a father, Rick?

Secondly, from what I have read on this post, you do not believe in the doctrines taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at this time. Consequently, you are not a "believer" of those doctrines. As I have stated previously, I am not interested in hearing your opinions (as a non-believer) about what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe. All I would like to hear is what you understand regarding YOUR beliefs - not what you think others believe. I hope you will truly ponder over what I have written instead of hurriedly respond.

Paul taught that the fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance (see Galatians 5:22-23). Reread what you have posted here. Do your words engender love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, or temperance? Or do they tend to engender strife - which Paul taught as a
"work of the flesh" (see vv19-21)? Your response to this inquiry will reveal much about your character and motives.

I hope that someday you will ask questions with the intent of wanting to understand - not to "make a man an offender for a word" (Isaiah 29:21) or to dig a pit for your neighbor.

Once again (this is the third time I have asked you this), did you read the article I referred you to earlier? If do, did it help you understand a little better about what we believe regarding salvation? If you did not read it, you can let me know that as well.

Thank you,
Geoff

Rick b said...

Geoff, yes I'm a father of three, thanks. Yes I read the article, I have seen all that info to some degree or another in other sources.

Now Geoff you said Paul taught that the fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance (see Galatians 5:22-23). Reread what you have posted here. Do your words engender love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, or temperance? Or do they tend to engender strife - which Paul taught as a
"work of the flesh" (see vv19-21)? Your response to this inquiry will reveal much about your character and motives.


While this is true, are you aware that the Bible teaches to search the scriptures to know if these things are true. Paul called down blindness upon a sorcerer for the false beliefs he was promoting. I find many places in the Bible where the apostles were tough on people for teaching false things. God said He places His word above His name.

Yet LDS always try and say in a round about way, lets avoid the finer points of what we believe lets keep it to surface issues. I believe in Jesus, so do you, I believe in grace, so do you, these things. Yet when it comes to defining the meanings and getting behind the curtain, LDS try to avoid that.

Read the book of Job, what did God say to Job and his friends? This is what He said, Job 42:7 ¶ And it was [so], that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me [the thing that is] right, as my servant Job [hath].

God was not happy that the people taught things about Him that were wrong. It's fine that you think your the true Church and I'm not, But lets be real here, If your going to call yourself a Christian and say that you believe the same thing as we do, then we need to be able to do as the Bible says and look at what you believe and compare to what we believe.

Here is a good example to help you understand better what I'm saying in case you misunderstand.

I have made what I call the "what if" challenge for lack of a better term, and I have said this to many LDS missionary's and not one has ever said, great idea please do it.

Why can LDS go door to door, or talk to people by way of the internet or whatever means possible, teach what you believe, Grace plus works, On going revelation, added scriptures, or whatever.

But if I were to go and tell people, Hi, I'm elder Rick B from the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter day Saints, or simply call me a Mormon. Yet I go onto teach Grace alone with no works, I teach the Trinity, I teach Eternal Hell, I teach things you guys deny, you would have a fit and tell me I cannot do that and I'm lying and deceiving people. Yet when you teach your Christians, yet teach a gospel that is different from what I teach, I simply have to accept that no questions asked, or i'm called hateful and then get scripture tossed at me telling me I do not loving my neighbor or I'm judging you or what ever. Why is that? Rick b

Geoff said...

Rick, congratulations to you. I hope you had a great Father's day with your family.

We have four children ourselves. Learning to be a good parent can teach us a lot about our Father in Heaven, don't you think?

I appreciate your thoughtful response to my earlier comment. I now have a better idea why you feel justified in writing the way you do. If I understand you correctly, you detest the fact that we (meaning members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) believe that we are Christians and that - in your eyes - we are somehow hijacking that term. I can see how that might make you upset.

I hope you will again consider the case of Peter and the other apostles who preached the Lord Jesus shortly after His (Christ's) resurrection from the dead.

Remember how the early Jewish leaders felt about the first Christians? The scriptures record that they emphatically told the apostles, "Did we not straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine" (Acts 5:28).

Sound familiar? "You Mormons are not Christians! Don't teach in His name! You have filled the world with your doctrine!"

But Peter and the apostles answered and said, "We ought to obey God rather than men... And we are His witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey Him" (Acts 5:29, 32).

How did the Jewish leaders respond? "When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them" (Acts 5:33).

I just can't help but notice the difference in the responses between the apostles and some of those early Jewish leaders. The apostles had the Holy Ghost with them. They spoke with authority, but in humility, testifying what they had seen with their eyes and heard with their ears, and which they and others had received a witness of through the Holy Ghost. Some of those Jewish leaders were so bitter that they wanted to slay the apostles, as they had the Savior. Is that the spirit of Christ?

Thankfully, at that moment anyway, at least one of those leaders (Gamaliel) listened to the thoughts and feelings placed in his mind and heart when he said, "Refrain from these men, and let them alone. for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God" (Acts 5:38-39).

That is good counsel. I, for one, am glad for those truths that are taught about Christ to others whose understanding is different from mine. Paul even said "What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice" (Philippians 1:18). He knew, as I do, that the Holy Ghost will respond to and teach those who really want to know the truth, and correct any errors that may have been taught by those whose understanding is limited by tradition, men's philosophies mingled with scripture, or even pretense. When the truth is taught, the sincere seeker of truth will feel it by the power of the Holy Ghost. Bitterness, anger, and contention only drives that Spirit away.

I hope this gives you hope, as well as motivation, to present your beliefs to others in a Christlike way.

Thank you,
Geoff

Rick B said...

Geoff, Since you want to try and relate what happened in acts with us verse you, for lack of a better term, then please explain how Peter went onto say that in Gal 1:8-9 if any one Even an angel preaches any other Gospel then let him be accursed.

Please explain what this other gospel is, then explain how you clearly know that what LDS teach verses what we Christioans teach are clearly not the same gospel. I have many mormons fight hard againt me to not admiot that fact, but when it come down to it if they are honest they must and have admited as much.

Example,
LDS": Grace plus Works

Christian: Grace Alone Nothing More

LDS Many Gods, no trinity

Christian: One God in 3 persons, Trinity

LDS: We can become Gods some day

Christian: One God only who Claims no other gods before Him or after Him.

Need I go on? That alone is a different Gospel, It's fine if you teach were wrong and your right, But you need to at least be honest and admit we are not teaching the same gospel.

Then you avoided my what if question. As I said every LDS member I ever put that question to said it would be wrong of me to do that. Rick b

Rick b said...

Geoff, Here is another question. Why is it LDS can call them selves Christains when you honestly do not believe what we believe. Yet LDS refuse to allow FLDS or RLDS to calll themselves Mormons when they clearly do believe closer to what you believe than we do. They at least believe the BoM and that JS was a prophet of God, where as we Christians do not. Yet You guys do not like them saying they are LDS. Why is that? Rick b

Geoff said...

Rick, if you were to go door-to-door and claim to be "Mormon" you know that would be dishonest. You would then be living contrary to the God you love and worship, Who, as Paul said to Titus, "cannot lie" (Titus 1:2).

As members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we honestly believe that we are followers of Jesus Christ. There is no dishonesty or deception there.

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

We claim that we are the re-established Church of Jesus Christ - the same church that the Savior Himself established when He lived on earth.

With that understanding, how do you know that your understanding of the gospel is the same as Paul's? How do you know that what you believe is not "another gospel" than the one that Peter, James, John, Paul, and that the Savior Himself taught?

Have you read and pondered over Elder Jeffrey R. Holland's address on why we believe we are true Christians? If not, I would kindly ask you to.

Thank you,
Geoff

Rick b said...

Geoff,
You told me I did not answer your question, then I did. How about you know answer mine?

Why is it LDS do not like RLDS or FLDS calling them selves Mormons?

Also you guys use the same terms as we do but you know as well as I do, if we look behind the terms you mean something different than us. Like you say we believe in Jesus. But if we go behind just a name and look at how you veiw Jesus verse how us Christians view Jesus it is two totaly different Jesus's. That why I say your not following the same Gospel. Rick b

Rick b said...

Geoff,
I was at school and needed to run so I could not finish what I was going to say.

You said if I dressed up as a Mormon and went door to door that would be lying and deceitful. Please explain how if were both Christians and believe the same things, then how am I lying? I would agree with you that if we have different gospels or believe and teach different things then yes your correct.

Now as I said before, we do not believe the same things. Just because you say, Jesus or grace or salvation does not mean it is the same thing I believe. If we go behind the meanings and dig a little deeper than we will see a different gospel.

Have you ever been to the fairlds boards? I have over 500 posts from years ago on that board, those hard core Mormons are at least honest enough to admit we do not have the same gospel, they believe they have the true gospel and were lacking, that's fine but at least they admit they are not the same gospel.

Now you said to me you would like to better understand why I think the way I do or I do the things I do, let me fill you in on something here and you tell me your thoughts.

We Christians tend to believe you LDS are less than honest and we believe it is in part from bringing it upon yourselves. Here is why. Take delirious for example, She accused me of telling her what she believes. She stated that LDS believe in Grace alone. I said LDS teach grace plus works and for you guys to say it's grace alone shows either your lying or your ignorant.

Now your thinking, how can you say that, Well I showed Her that the BoM teaches we are saved by grace PLUS WORKS after all we can do. Since the BoM teaches it, how can you say I am lying? Yet she never addressed how I was wrong. Then I gave her exact quotes from YOUR LDS PROPHETS and PRESIDENTS talking about what these works are that we MUST DO. Since I gave exact quotes and she never went on to explain how I am wrong, then how can you guys teach it's grace alone yet your BoM and prophets teach other wise?

Then take the word of wisdom. I said LDS only follow the no drinking part, But verse 8 says use tobacco for bruises, yet LDS do not do that. She accused me of claiming I was telling her what she believes by saying you must rub yourselves with tobacco, I never said you must, I said the WoW teaches that, then she deleted my post. And you guys wonder why we feel your dishonest. Then you Geoff, instead of answer my question, you try and put it back on me and ask me how I can be sure I have the true gospel, and then send me to a link to look over. How about you answer the question instead of putting it back on me. I notice LDS do that all the time.

Geoff said...

Rick,

From the way you have responded to Delirious and myself, there are two major hurdles that are preventing us from learning from one another.

The first is that instead of stating what YOU believe (and assuming that I or others know what you believe - which, frankly, I don't), you continue to assert that you know what I or other members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe. As I said in my initial comment, I had hoped that you would be willing to share YOUR beliefs - not my beliefs. I already know my beliefs!

Secondly, you continue to write comments and ask questions not to understand, but only to try and prove your preconceived notions. That seems a little Pharisaical, doesn't it?

If what I have observed is incorrect, I apologize. However, your multiple posts have done a tremendous job convincing me of my conclusions!

I look forward to learning from other Christians who only desire to help me understand what they believe and why they believe. And I am more than willing to share my beliefs with others who really want to understand what I believe and why.

"For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

"Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away"
(The Lord Jesus Christ, as recorded in 3 Nephi 11:29-30).

Thank you for reading,
Geoff

Rick b said...

Geoff,
Your a great example of what I am talking about. You insist I am telling you what you believe, Yet When I say that your prophets and BoM teach this....

Yet Delirious say or teach this.....

And they contradict each other I point that fact out, and do you think either of you can tell me where I am wrong? No, you simply avoid it. If I am wrong in my thinking of what you teach then please explain how I am wrong, yet you do not do that, why is that?

How hard is it to say, Rick, I understand why you think you see a problem, Here is what your missing, Yet you dont do that, you simply avoid what I am pointing out and then tell me I am a hypocrite. Then you wonder why I feel your less than honest. Rick b

Michael Gormley said...
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Michael Gormley said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael Gormley said...

The Protestant Doctrine of Eternal Security.

A Psychological Trap.

The Protestant doctrine of eternal security is a psychological trap, and one that is all too easy to fall into. By providing a quick, simplistic answer as to how we are saved, and giving the person the comfort of assured eternal salvation, it discourages further inquiry into the fullness of the truth on this most important matter.

This rather fast assurance of salvation helps to make Protestantism very popular. My personal feeling is that many people in the silent or quiet moments of their lives must know in their hearts that this fast, simplistic assurance of eternal salvation is too good to be true (Romans 2:14-16).

The natural law, the law written on our hearts of flesh, is calling us to seek the fullness of the truth in the Church founded by Jesus Christ (Jeremiah 29:11-13) (Deuteronomy 6:4-6).

Playing With Fire.

Many people in following the 16th century reformers are deliberately choosing to reject Catholic Church authority and the channels of grace available to them in the seven (7) Sacraments.

If they knowingly and wilfully did this, on such an important matter, they could find out (perhaps to late) that it will be more difficult for them to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

God will respect their free will and the decisions they made, along with the grace and truth that they have received, and will place them in the proper eternal location or condition.

The more grace and truth that they have received the more that will be expected from them (Luke 7: 47; 12: 48). Perhaps they feel they can live life their way, using their freedom to choose the truth when they want to, or abuse their freedom by choosing to do evil (Contraception, abortion, etc.) when they find it convenient.

You are only free to choose the good. Love God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your spirit, and then do what you will.

Many people joining a "church" (faith communities) for convenience of life style, are "choosing not to know" the fullness of the truth in the Catholic Church.

They hope that they can somehow claim ignorance (or say it was controversial) and therefore escape culpability on their individual day of judgment.

Feigned ignorance will not allow anyone to escape culpability ( proverbs 24: 11-12 ). This is like playing with fire.

They choose not to turn and come closer to the fullness of the truth, which is a person Jesus Christ and who also is one with His Spouse, the Church (Ephesians 5: 32).

daveg4g said...

Is Half of The Story Sufficient For Salvation?

How many sides are there to a story? If you say two, then you are wrong. If you had one side and I had one side that would make two sides. However, there is a third side, the side of truth.

Rule # 1... One half of truth does not a truth make. Neither does one half of a story make the full story. No intelligent person can hear one side of a story and decide which side has the truth.

Both sides have to be heard, then analysed, and then a decision has to be made as to which side (if either) has a valid story, and after that, the right side(s), or truth side, can be determined.

This thinking holds true for discerning what Holy Scripture tells us.

Throughout the Bible there are double standards, yet the fundamentalist thinking shows only one standard, or one side of the story, or only one half of the truth.

Their thinking is in violation of rule # 1. With only one half of truth, you do not have truth. Anything less than the whole truth is error.

In the following examples, side 'A' is the first side, side 'B' is the second, and side 'C' is the right, or truth side.

Example # 1... Sola Scriptura...? Only the Bible. Fundamentalist thinking is that the Bible is sufficient and nothing else is needed for salvation.

First of all, in order to believe in the 'Bible Only' philosophy, you have to show that Scripture says it. Is that not true? The doctrine of 'Sola Scriptura' is not to be found in Scripture.

A. Tradition is condemned in many places in Scripture, such as Job 22:15, Matthew 15:6, Mark 7:3-13, Galatians 1:14, Colossians 2:8, 1Timothy 1:4, Titus 1:14, and 1Peter 1:18. Look at these verses and grasp their meaning.

They all address 'vain' human traditions and are rightly condemned. This is one half of the truth.

B. Tradition is supported in more places in Scripture than it is condemned. Study Isaiah 59:21, Luke 1:2, 2:19,51, Luke 10:16, 2Thessalonians 2:14-15 - "Stand firm and hold the traditions you have learned..", 2Timothy 1:13,2:2, 1Peter 1:25, 1Jn 1:1,2:24, 2Jn 1:12, Revelation 12:17,19:10.

These are different traditions than mentioned in 'A'. These are the Traditions of GOD, or 'Apostolic' Tradition.' Again, this is only half of the truth.

C. The truth is, yes, we do condemn the vain tradition of men, as shown in 'A', and we must keep the Tradition of GOD, as shown in 'B'.

Thus we have half the truth in 'A', and the other half in 'B', and combined we have the full truth.

The false doctrine of Sola Scriptura adds A and B together and puts the total in A, rejecting all of tradition. A+B=C.

Continue>>

Tortoise said...

WHAT YOU MUST DO TO BE SAVED

Best of all, the promise of eternal life is a gift, freely offered to us by God (CCC 1727).

The Catholic Church teaches what the apostles taught and what the Bible teaches: We are saved by grace alone, but not by faith alone (which is what "Bible Christians" teach; see James. 2:24).

When we come to God and are justified (that is, enter a right relationship with God), nothing preceding justification, whether faith or good works, earns grace.

But then God plants his love in our hearts, and we should live out our faith by doing acts of love (Galatians 6:2).

Even though only God’s grace enables us to love others, these acts of love please him, and he promises to reward them with eternal life (Romans 2:6–7, Galatians 6:6–10).

Thus good works are meritorious. When we first come to God in faith, we have nothing in our hands to offer him.

Then he gives us grace to obey his commandments in love, and he rewards us with salvation when we offer these acts of love back to him (Romans 2:6–11, Galatians 6:6–10, Matthew 25:34–40).

15 Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house.

16 Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father. (Matthew 5: 15-16)

Jesus said it is not enough to have faith in him; we also must obey his commandments. "Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ but do not do the things I command?" (Luke 6:46, Matthew 7:21–23, 19:16–21).

We do not "earn" our salvation through good works (Ephesians 2:8–9, Romans 9:16), but our faith in Christ puts us in a special grace-filled relationship with God so that our obedience and love, combined with our faith, will be rewarded with eternal life (Romans 2:7, Galatians 6:8–9).

Paul said, "God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work" (Philippians 2:13).

John explained that "the way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his commandments. Whoever says, ‘I know him,’ but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:3–4, 3:19–24, 5:3–4).

Since no gift can be forced on the recipient—gifts always can be rejected—even after we become justified, we can throw away the gift of salvation.

We throw it away through grave (mortal) sin (John 15:5–6, Romans 11:22–23, 1 Corinthians 15:1–2; CCC 1854–1863). Paul tells us, "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).

Read his letters and see how often Paul warned Christians against sin! He would not have felt compelled to do so if their sins could not exclude them from heaven (see, for example, 1 Corinthians 6:9–10, Galatians 5:19–21).

Paul reminded the Christians in Rome that God "will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life for those who seek glory, honour, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness" (Romans 2:6–8).

Sins are nothing but evil works (CCC 1849–1850). We can avoid sins by habitually performing good works.

Every saint has known that the best way to keep free from sins is to embrace regular prayer, the sacraments (the Eucharist first of all), and charitable acts.

a39greenway said...

What is required in order to have Jesus ABIDE in us and we in Him?

Can we do it:

1. By accepting Him as our our own personal Lord and Savior ?
No. Where does the Bible say that?

2. By the grace of GOD only? Sola Gracias?
No. Where does the Bible say that?

3. By faith in GOD alone? Sola Fides?
No. Where does the Bible say that?

It is simple common sense that since He commanded that we must do something, then doesn't it stand to reason that He would also tell us how to do it?

Jesus was very clear in what we must do in order to have Him ABIDE in us and we in Him.

Jesus left this command for us in John 6:53-57:

53 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you (the taken away branch);

54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 HE WHO EATS MY FLESH AND DRINKS MY BLOOD ABIDES IN ME, AND I IN HIM.

57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me."

Michael Gormley said...

Who Has The Authority?
And who does not!


Authority comes from the "Author of Life", Acts 3:15. All authority comes from GOD, "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities.

For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."
(Romans 13:1-2).

Notice that GOD is selective as to just who He gives authority.

The Catholic Church has a form of government called a theocracy and operates as an "Hierarchy".

Like any other form of government, it has to have "authority" to function.

The Church received its authority from its founder, Jesus Christ...

Private interpretation of Scriptures can be exceedingly harmful to self and others. This has divided Christianity into hundreds if not tens of thousands of segments.

Too many individuals claim their position is right and are unwilling to freely discuss the position taken or to be submissive to moral authorities.

Holding to a personal position, or one of heretical source, places one's eternal soul in jeopardy. Such people often become instruments that lead others to perdition.