Thursday, June 17, 2010

For the Strength of Youth: Physical Health

The following is an excerpt from our youth pamphlet, "For the Strength of Youth"

“Physical Health,” For the Strength of Youth: Fulfilling Our Duty to God, 36

“All saints who remember to keep and do these sayings … shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones; and shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures; and shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint” (D&C 89:18–20).

The Lord has commanded you to take good care of your body. To do this, observe the Word of Wisdom, found in Doctrine and Covenants 89. Eat nutritious food, exercise regularly, and get enough sleep. When you do all these things, you remain free from harmful addictions and have control over your life. You gain the blessings of a healthy body, an alert mind, and the guidance of the Holy Ghost.

Never use tobacco products, such as cigarettes, snuff, chewing tobacco, cigars, and pipe tobacco. They are very addictive and will damage your body and shorten your life. Also, do not drink coffee or tea, for these are addictive and harmful.

Any form of alcohol is harmful to your body and spirit. Being under the influence of alcohol weakens your judgment and self-control and could lead you to break the law of chastity or other commandments. Drinking can lead to alcoholism, which destroys individuals and families.

Any drug, chemical, or dangerous practice that is used to produce a sensation or “high” can destroy your physical, mental, and spiritual well-being. These include hard drugs, prescription or over-the-counter medications that are abused, and household chemicals.

Never let Satan or others lead you to think that breaking the Word of Wisdom will make you happier or more attractive."

Daniel 1:3–20


Rick b said...

We read this account given by Brigham Young in the JoD.

The first school of the prophets was held in a small room situated over the Prophet Joseph's kitchen.... When they assembled together in this room after breakfast, the first they did was to light their pipes, and, while smoking, talk about the great things of the kingdom, and spit all over the room, and as soon as the pipe was out of their mouths a large chew of tobacco would then be taken. Often when the Prophet entered the room to give the school instructions he would find himself in a cloud of tobacco smoke. This, and the complaints of his wife at having to clean so filthy a floor, made the Prophet think upon the matter, and he inquired of the Lord relating to the conduct of the Elders in using tobacco, and the revelation known as the Word of Wisdom was the result of his inquiry (Journal of Discourses, vol. 12, p.158)

It would apper to me, and this is simply my MERE OPINION. I think instead of JS telling everyone to stop spitting Tobacco on the floor, he claims God spoke to him on this sugject. Even if God really did speak to him about this, it still is strange that we go from a simple non-command to a serious command years later.

Well we read in verse 2: 2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days

It says that this was not a commandment. Yet it turns into one around 18 years or so after it was first reveled. If this really was given by the Lord, why does it not start out as a command, but years later turn into one? Why is it God simply could not start it out as a command? I ask in light of the verse found in Alma 41:8

8 Now, the decrees of God are unalterable; therefore, the way is prepared that whosoever will may walk therein and be saved.

Then as a result of this so called command, People can be kept out of the temple and possibly be denied entrance into the celestial kingdom, if they do not obey the WoW. Because of this, I want to ask, Why was this WoW not given as one of the ten commandments or at least mentioned by Jesus in the Bible or the BoM?

We even read faithful LDS members cannot hold certain offices if the deny or do not obey the WoW.

History of the Church 2:34-35 reported this in February 1834: "The president opened the Council by prayer...The Council then proceeded to try the question, whether disobedience to the Word of Wisdom was a transgression sufficient to deprive an official member from holding office in the Church, after having it sufficiently taught him. Councilors Samuel H. Smith, Luke S. Johnson, John S. Carter, Sylvester Smith, John Johnson and Orson Hyde, were called to speak upon the case then before the Council. After the Councilors had spoken, the President proceeded to give the decision: No official member in this Church is worthy to hold an office, after having the Word of Wisdom properly taught him, and he, the official member, neglecting to comply with or obey it; which decision the Council confirmed by vote."

I find it really sad that even an LDS member feels, us Non-LDS notice the hypocrisy of LDS members not obeying the WoW.

The hypocrisy of the membership was even admitted by LDS Apostle Orson Pratt who once stated, "I do not wonder that the world say that the Latter-day Saints do not believe their own revelations. Why? Because we do not practice them. Journal of Discourses 17:104

Well if the LDS admit they dont keep them and you must in order to enter the temple, then did God really give this WoW? Rick b

Delirious said...

Well Rick, if the head of the church was the Prophet, then Joseph Smith might just as well have told the brethren to stop spitting on the floor. But in fact, the head of the church is Jesus Christ, and He had a higher way.

It's interesting to note that this revelation was given many years ago before the dangers of these substances was known. One interesting part of this commandment is that it was given "In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days". Companies today want people to be addicted to their product because that is how they make money. As time goes on, the wisdom of this commandment is more apparent. Those companies don't care about the effect of their products on people's health, they only care about making money.

Do all LDS obey the Word of Wisdom? No. Do all LDS obey the law of chastity? No. Do all LDS obey the law of the Sabbath, or of tithing? No. We all struggle with our own weaknesses. But the interesting thing about the Word of Wisdom is that it was "adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints". The very spiritually weakest among us have the ability to obey this law. When I meet a member of the church who does not obey this law, I tell myself that this is a person who needs spiritual strengthening.

Bottom line, the gospel of Jesus Christ is for the sinner, of which we all qualify. There are no perfect latter-day Saints, only those who are striving to be perfect. That is the beauty of the atonement of Jesus Christ, because it gives us the opportunity to repent when we commit sin. I agree with the statement by Orson Pratt, but I don't think any other religion can claim any better obedience by their members. We are human, and we all commit sin. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8

I can testify that I have lived this law my entire life, and I have been very blessed because of it. Most members I know also obey it, and also enjoy the blessings of the temple. For those who struggle to obey it, I suggest they focus on the blessings promised, and strengthen themselves spiritually so that they will have the faith necessary to obey.

Delirious said...

Oh, and by the way, there is another comment for you under the topic, "Saved by Grace"

Looney said...

I was just enjoying reading this while sipping on a cup of coffee - mixed decaf and regular. The soda addictions have mostly died down, and alcohol has never been my thing. Tobacco is a curse, but working in Japan taught me to be tolerant. Is it possible to be totally addiction free?

Delirious said...

I don't know if it is possible to be addiction free Looney, but all I can say is that I'm glad the Word of Wisdom didn't include chocolate or sugar. :)

Rick B said...

Were Going to Focus on Verses 5-9 in this part of the WOW. First lets review what they say.
5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

Let me start by saying this, If anyone wants to follow a certain Diet, or eat or drink certain things and not others for any reason, Then good for you. But to say that if we eat certain foods God will not allow us into Heaven is a false teaching.

Lets first read what the Bible teaches on this subject.
In Acts 10 we read about God telling peter to kill and eat.

Act 10:10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
Act 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Act 10:15 And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.
Act 10:16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Rick B said...

Another list of verses we read is

Mat 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

Rom 14:21 [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

1Cr 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

1Cr 9:4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?

1Cr 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

1Ti 3:8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Tts 2:3 The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things.

Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Luk 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Mar 2:22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Ok, I gave a list of verses that show God, Jesus and the apostles Drank Wine and do not condemn the drinking of any beverage. For all the people that want to claim the wine Jesus drank was non-alcoholic
then I must ask this, Why was Jesus accused of being a drunk? You cannot be accused of being a drunk if you drink grape juice. And I might add if wine does not contain alcohol why not simply call it grape Juice. Plus the fact Jesus used the example of new wine bursting old wine skins shows that the wine is fermennting, theirfore it does contain Alcohol.

I would ask this also, Why would God or the Bible provide verses that allow people to drink and include wine, and never mention the fact that if you do this you cannot enter the 3rd heaven, But years later God changes his mind and will keep you out of heaven for drinking something?

I would like to point out also and ask a question. How do we go from HOT DRINKS to this means Coffee or Tea, but Not Hot Chocolate, soup broth, warm to hot milk? The WOW does not define Hot Drinks as Coffee or Tea, so how come we cannot drink cold coffeee or cold tea, if the Hot Drinks is not clearly defined as such?

I have heard mormons claims we cannot drink Coffee or tea because of Caffine, So I must ask, if this is the reason, then why is it ok for Mormons to Drink Hot Chocolate or soda that contains Caffine or even eat a chocolate Candy bar or use medicane that contains Caffine? If it is an issue of Caffine, how come we then cannot drink Caffine free Tea? I know a few LDS who Claim Hot Chocolate was not around in JS day, that was why it was not included. But According to History of Hot Chocolate it has been around since the 1500's and was even around in the 1800's. Odds are pretty Good it was around in JS day.

Looney said...

Rick, there is also this verse:

"No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize." - 1 Corinthians 9:27

The context Paul uses is of training for a race, while other classical writers describe this training procedure in more detail: Controlling diet was a key part, as well preferring water to intoxicants.

In this sense, I see the LDS rules as being the same as other Christians, especially those from much earlier eras: We must avoid addiction so that we are able to master our body and use it for God's glory. This is entirely different from the ceremonial cleaning of Jews and Muslims.

I am not opposed to wine, but I can buy a gallon of juice for less than a liter of wine - and it won't leave me with bad breath!

Rick B said...

First off the Bible is clear and I believe the Bible does not jive with the WoW and do not believe it is from God.

Then just because you drink coffee here and their does not mean you are addicted to it. Even for people who are, the Bible does not teach that people addicted to coffee will not enter heaven.

then the prophets JS and BY, Both drank smoked and BY even owned and ran a distillery and drank hard drinks.

Then as I said, the LDS claim HOT DRINKS is coffee and Tea, but the WoW says hot drinks, so they pick and choose what they believe that means is hot drinks while excluding others like HOT chocolate.

Also if cold coffee or tea is not HOT, Why not drink that instead? Rick b

Delirious said...

The Word of Wisdom wasn't given in days of old because the "conspiring men" exist in our day. But even at that, there were different strengths of wine in olden days. We often read of them drinking "new wine", which wasn't strong. Today alcohol is particularly prepared to be strong.

Church leaders have specified that "hot drinks" includes coffee, and tea. There has been no church statement about caffeine. I prefer to avoid it though, and feel that by doing so I am living not only the letter of the law, but the spirit of it.

But let me give you and Looney both a challenge. Try this law out for yourself. Abstain from coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco, illegal drugs; eat meat sparingly, and focus on eating fruits, vegetables and grains. I challenge you to give it a try for one month and see if you can identify the blessings you will receive by so doing.

Delirious said...

Oh, and I wanted to mention this part of the Word of Wisdom too. Those who obey it:

"shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures"

So don't just look for the health benefits.

Rick B said...

Hello Delirious,
about your challange, I simply must decline. Why you will ask, well because I hate tea so I do not drink it, I do not smoke or do drugs, I do not drink wine, it's nasty to me.

But I love meat, and God told peter to rise Kill and eat, While He did not speak to me like that, Jesus ate meat and did not ever say in the NEW TESTAMENT we must either stop eating meat or only rarely eat it.

Now About coffee, how is it people can say it is addictive, yet a peson might only drink one cup per day, the question never comes up how much do you drink,

well lets see, I drink 3 gallons of hot coffee a day, ok maybe 3 gallons a day we can say this person has an issue, But many LDS drink ONE soda a day, yet thats not addictive? but One cup of coffee is? Please thats crazy.

Now lets just look at one verse.

8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

Honestly how many faithful LDS members can say, they use tobacco for bruises or how many LDS know of cattle ranchers who use tobacco on the livestock they own? Rick B

Delirious said...

It's not only about the addiction. These things simply are not healthy for you.

You say you won't take the challenge because of coffee. Think about how much money you would save, how much healthier you would be...

I say you are chicken. ;P lol

Rick b said...

You say they are not healthy for you, but their have been many studies that have claimed to show health benefits for drinking coffee, like lowering your risk of stroke.

Then as I said, how many LDS rub them selves or their farm animals with tobacco leaves or they drink soda but not coffee? Rick b

Delirious said...

Sorry Rick, I don't know too much about farming, but I do know that tobacco is good for sick cattle. I don't know of too much else it is good for.

And frankly, I don't believe every study that comes out, but I do believe the Lord.

Still scared to try? ;)

Rick b said...

well if you say you believe the Lord, then why do you not believe Him when He spoke in the Bible where it tell us not to forbid food or drinks.

Delirious said...

What the Lord says in the Bible is that we don't abstain from meat, which I don't. But I do eat it sparingly. But it's interesting that you brought up the point that the Lord doesn't ask us to not eat certain foods. Have you read the story of Shadrack, Meshack and Abednego?

Rick b said...

Funny that you mention Shadrack, Meshack and Abednego.

I read the story and guess what, Daniel does not eat vegetables only and they choose to do it, God did not Command them to do it. Then they choose to do it, we are not commanded to do it, remember the Bible says,

Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

Now I believe this includes drinks since drinking tends to go with eating.

Here again
1Cr 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

I eat and drink all to the glory of God.

These verses really tell me the WoW is from man, not God.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Col 2:21(Touch not; taste not; handle not;

Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Rick b

Looney said...

This can't be proven from external sources, but the speculation is that the meat which would have been provided to Daniel and his friends would all have been sacrificed to idols - or which they had plenty. Thus, the reason for refusing meat would have been the idol worship. (Acts 15:29)

The Persians didn't do any idol worship, so the situation changed completely under Darius and Xerxes. (Something that can't be learned by looking at the Bible text exclusively.)

The pagan governor Pliny wrote a letter to Trajan discussing economic dislocations associated with Christians and sacrifices to idols, but this is 6 centuries later and involves Rome rather than Babylon.

Delirious said...

The Jews were given strict commandments about what they were not supposed to eat. God can repeal that law at any time, or add to it at any time. If God gives a command tomorrow to give up meat all together, I would do it. It's not about what we have done in the past, it's about what God commands today.

We have modern scripture that gives us more insight to the deeper meaning of the commandments.

"34 Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created.
35 Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself; and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual; they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual."
Doctrine and Covenants 29:34,35

The Word of Wisdom is more than just a physical code of health. It could be likened to fasting, which teaches us discipline over our bodies. It is a law that strengthens us spiritually. This is one of the most simple commandments; far easier to obey than say, "Love thy neighbor as thyself".

Rick b said...

Like I said, God never gave the WoW, and many LDS only keep parts of it but not all of it, Like rubbing their bodies with tobacco for example.

10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.
12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

From the time of Adam and Eve in the garden till the time Noah stepped of the Ark, we were only allowed to eat fruit and herbs. After Noah stepped of the Ark, then we were allowed to eat meat. But in verses 12 and 13 it states meat is both to be used sparingly and only in times of winter or famine.

I am guessing that LDS are not going with a complete Vegan diet in the summer. If not then you either are not obeying the WOW or you dont take these verses seriously. Why is that? Rick b

Delirious said...

Sorry Rick, maybe I'm just getting old, but I don't feel like answering your 50 questions. I tire of conversations that veer off in to 50 different directions.

Rick b said...

Dont be sorry, Your just doing what every mormon does. I am not asking 50 different questions, my questions come from the WoW and I'm simply showing from the WoW that LDS claim to keep the WoW yet they really do not and I am asking why they only keep some parts, like not drinking coffee or tea, but thats really about all they keep.

Delirious said...

Yea, I guess you are right Rick, you just can't talk to us evil mormons...maybe you better find a different blog.

Rick B said...

Delirious said...
Yea, I guess you are right Rick, you just can't talk to us evil mormons

It,s not that I cannot talk to you guys, it's you guys will not talk to me, I ask questions and you simply refuse to answer them. But then instead of sayingt I dont or wont answer you, you make it seem like I'm asking many different questions and you cannot keep up, that is simply false.

Like you said your church has prophets that hear from God, or new revelation, So I ask why is it then your prophets recive "fresh" Revelation ion trivial matters but not on things that are truly important.

You brought up the revelation bit, I simply asked a question.

Your topic was on the WoW, I simply pointed out how LDS only follow a very small part of it, that is no drinking beer, wine, coffee and tea. I asked why they dont follow the rest of it, then you claimed i'm asking 50 different questions when in fact I kept it to the topic.

Then you guys scrath your head and wonder why we seem to not trust you LDS or think your less than honest at times.

Then people like Geoff come along and say, here are rules to follow when having interfaith talks, Those rules are great but, they are one sided, you want me to follow them but then you avoid questions of mine or expect me to only answer you and not ask in return or expect me to not call you out for avoiding questions.
then you never explain why I'm wrong or how your being fair and balanced. Rick b

Looney said...

Rick, I don't think it is right to go into someone else's house, make yourself at home and then dominate the discourse for weeks on end. We are not to act like the mother-in-law! I have argued with those of the Darwinian religion a bit, but then let it go after a day or two.

Our testimony must begin with our actions. We pray and we allow the Holy Spirit to work. When we tell others of Jesus, it is to follow up on these. By continuously arguing you are not giving a Christian testimony. You are not giving room for the Holy Spirit. What you are doing is doomed to fail.

Rick B said...

Looney, whyis it I'm not allowed to ask questions when the person posts a topic and then I feel that they only live out part of what they say they do, then It is me a fault for asking why it is not all or nothing. It was Jesus that said be Hot or Cold, because if your like warm I will spew you out of my mouth. Then if LDS call them selves christians yet do not live what they teach, then according to James, I can try and pull them out of the fire and theirby save them. I swear for a guy who claims to be a beliver you sure do defend a person who teaches another Gospel and denys what Gal 1:8-9 says and attacks a fellow believer and refuses to answer my questions. Rick b

Delirious said...

Okay Rick, I'm going to try to be really honest, but not offend you at the same time. I don't know if that is possible, but here goes.

1. You came to my blog and immediately started hurling out insults and attacks. The tone was so angry and hateful, I really had no desire to participate. But I made the mistake of getting in to the discussion, not realizing the discussion never ends!

2. You have very poor communication skills. You can't stick to one subject. You answer my reply with 50 different thoughts. It really makes it impossible to answer you.

3. You are poorly informed, but you refuse to accept when I tell you what we really believe. You even called me a liar when I told you what we believe. For example, you said we rub ourselves with tobacco. I've been attending this church for almost 49 years and have never heard of any members doing this. But even if they did, I can't imagine rubbing the skin would cause the same damage as smoking it.

4. You claim to be Christian, but your attitude and anger directed at me and my religion certainly does not feel Christlike.

So frankly Rick, I'm done. I am really not interested in hearing your version of what we believe. I am well educated in my beliefs, and your version does not jive with my version. So feel free to study every inch of our standard works and church history, but please don't share your views of them with me. I can read them for myself. If I could have a normal fair discussion with you, I would, but I have found it impossible to even keep the conversation on one topic! I don't answer your questions because you can't even accept the basic doctrine. You have chosen to eat meat before milk, and you are choking on it. I can't begin to explain deeper doctrine when you can't even accept simple doctrine. The gospel is preached line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little. You can't accept the first line, why go on? You have rejected it, plain and simple. And I have rejected your beliefs straight out. I have no reservations about rejecting your beliefs. It is not the gospel that I read in the Bible. No amount of your attacks will ever convince me otherwise. In fact, they have the opposite effect. I feel even more confident and have even more conviction that I'm on the right path.

Looney said...

Rick, for one thing, you are giving lectures and sermons, and then putting a question onto the end.

We are to be "hot" regarding our love for the Lord as reflected in our life, our prayers, our relationship with Him, giving a testimony. But when were we given a command to argue people into submission? This is the methodology of the atheists.

Rick B said...

Here is a good example of how it is not me that is wrong or mis informed but you. You said 3. You are poorly informed, but you refuse to accept when I tell you what we really believe. You even called me a liar when I told you what we believe. For example, you said we rub ourselves with tobacco. I've been attending this church for almost 49 years and have never heard of any members doing this. But even if they did, I can't imagine rubbing the skin would cause the same damage as smoking it.

I did NOT SAY, that you guys rub yourselves with Tobbaco, it IS YOUR WoW that says YOU MUST DO THIS. What part of the WoW Do you not understand? Why are you saying it is me that is wrong?

Then you claimed you teach Grace alone, I showed from YOUR PROPHETS THAT they teach WORKS BASED SALVATION. Yet you claim I am wrong, What part of what YOUR LEADERS SAID do you not understand? Rick b

Inklings said...

Delirious, as blog administrator, you do have the right to delete any comments Rick leaves, you know.

Rick b said...

If you delete me thats fine, But it would beg the question of, Are you being honest or not? I say that because as I pointed out, it is the WoW that says rub your bodies with tobacco, Not me. Then it's your BoM and your LDS Prophets that taught and teach A Works salvation, which you guys claim you do not teach and imply I am making it all up. My questions were, why do the LDS sources teach these things and yet you say I am making this all up? Rick b

Looney said...

Delirious, I vote you go ahead and delete.

Delirious said...

I think you are right Looney and Inklings. When he claims that the Word of Wisdom insists we rub our bodies with tobacco, it is so bizarre that it's laughable, but it is a perfect example of Rick telling me what I believe, even when I tell him he is incorrect. Sorry Rick, but I'm tired of your inability to listen.

Rick b said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Mr. Giggles said...

I know I've been absent from this, but I wanted to speak up. Rick, you are misunderstanding that particular passage of the Word of Wisdom. We were never commanded to rub tobacco, we were advised that using tobacco in that way is its best use. We were commanded to not take it into our bodies or bellies.

As for "hot drinks," you are correct in one thing: doctors have even determined that hot drinks are harmful to your stomach. At the time, there were two drinks which were deemed "hot drinks:" coffee and tea. We avoid those two because of the addictive characteristics. And yes, we SHOULD avoid all caffeinated drinks. But that is a matter of free will for everyone. Addiction removes free will, though, which is why we should avoid it.

I would only add one more thing here, and that is not about the WoW. How is belittling our Faith an attempt to "save" us in any way? No person in the history of the world has EVER been won over by negative, derogatory comments, suggestions or even questions. You seem to do a TON of research--all with the goal of trying to prove us wrong. All we do is try to learn more about our own faith so we can try to live it better. Are we perfect? No. I have never claimed to be so. No LDS person I know has. This life is a struggle. Why spend all that much time with the intent of knocking down a Christian Religion that has endured for over 150 years! 12 millions people world-wide, with an ever-growing population cannot be THAT wrong. Instead of trying to find way you think we are wrong, try asking where we are right! You may find that we have much more in common than your comments thus far have suggested.

By the way,I LOVED your hot sauce review on your blog! Nice to see someone with a taste for the good stuff! :o)