The question was raised recently about why God allows people to do bad things. To answer this question, we must go back, before this world was created. We must go back to one of the reasons for our life on this Earth.
In Job 38:1-7 we read, "Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" God Himself, is speaking of our existence before this world was created. When He created the Earth, all the sons of God shouted for joy. We existed before coming to this Earth.
When we were in heaven, a council was held to discuss our coming to this Earth and how we would make it back to heaven after this earth life is over. The Bible doesn't give us much information concering this event, but what it does tell us is that there was a war in heaven: "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Revelations 12:7 What was it that caused the war? What were we fighting about? As part of our church's scripture, we have an account from the book of Moses that talks about this war in heaven. "And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor. But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever. Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;" Moses 4:1-3 The plan of salvation had been presented. Jesus had offered to come and offer himself as a ransom for our sins. As part of this plan, we would be allowed free agency, the chance to choose for ourselves. Jesus didn't seek this position for glory for Himself, but offered that glory to the Father. Satan, however, had a much different plan. He sought to take away the agency of all men. His plan was to force us to obey the commandments. All he asked in return was that he be given the glory for doing this task. Isaiah also speaks of this event. "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the amost High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." Isaiah 14:12-15
This issue of agency was very important to us all. This life is a sort of testing ground for us. This idea of our needing to "prove" ourselves is common in the scriptures. When the children of Israel were wandering in the wilderness, the Lord said to Moses, "Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no." Exodus 16:4 So too, this life was given us to prove if we will walk in His law or not, and whether or not we are worthy to live with God again.
I often liken this idea to when I tried to train my dog to stay off the couch. I had decided that because he was so large, and shed so much, I didn't want him to sit on my couches. I taught him to stay off the couches, and if I saw him there, I would reprimand him, and he would slink off to the floor. However, the real "proof" of his obedience was whether or not he would obey when I wasn't around. This is the same type of situation in which we find ourselves here on Earth. God isn't physically present to make sure that we obey. In addition, we have no memory of living with God before this Earth life. This is necessary so that we can develop faith. Will we, when given a choice between what is right, and what is wrong, choose the right? This is the agency offered to us by Jesus Christ in the councils in heaven.
In order for us to have total agency, God must allow us to choose wrong. Unfortunately, there are victims in this process. If God did not allow us to choose wrong, then we could not be fully tested and proved. Often people question why God allows bad things to happen to good people. He allows it because He allows free agency. However what we must keep in mind is that God is just, and those who commit evil in this life, must pay the price at the judgement day. "Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment." Eccl. 11:9 While it is difficult to watch others use their agency to destroy, or to hurt others, it is comforting to know that they will receive judgement for their actions. It is also a blessing to know that we have the free agency to choose for ourselves. We can make of our life what we will.
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13 comments:
Left you a comment over at 'something else'
Sorry haven't learned how to put the link thingy in yet. :-)
Valarosa said....
Hey Delirious
Cool comments on free agency ... I guess that coincides with the evangelical Christian viewpoint of free will.
I'm not sure I agree with free will though ... freedom is not really a reality anywhere for us humans. There are relative degrees of what we tend to mean as freedom, but we really all have someone to answer to. God is the only one I know who has complete freedom and answers to no one.
Does the pot really have anything to say to the potter?
Isaiah, Jeremiah.
So my question was not exactly as you have understood it.
Do you not see the game here? The tree is placed in the middle of the garden and we are told not to touch it.
Have you never asked yourself why the tree was there in the first place?
I know that choosing to eat of the fruit of that tree has placed us in a whole new ball park of choices, i.e., it was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
So now we have the knowledge of good and evil and become a creation that needs contending with. We have become a challenge and a prize in the war between good and evil.
What the Lord is saying to Job is this .... I am God and who are you to question me as to my dealings with mankind?
Have you never wondered at the reason Satan was allowed to touch Job at all? Have you never checked out that conversation between the two of them before Satan was allowed to harm Job?
I'm sure you have, I'm just asking, what do you think of that deal between them that caused Job horrible grief?
I Job 39 1-7
Not being offensive ... just curious.
You mention that the Sons of God are we created humans?
BUT there is NO MENTION of the Sons of God at the creation of the earth shouting for joy in any translation that I have looked into.
Is this something that you have added or was it left out?
You said:
God isn't physically present to make sure that we obey.
I don't quite agree with this ... The Holy Spirit is very present ... our consciences bear witness to that and that is actually better than a limited physical presence.
Back to the Sons of God being us in heaven again.
If we were with God in heaven before we were 'created' here on earth what kind of game was this to send us here where there is so much pain and suffering?
Even in the most peaceful places here death, illness and heartache are ever present.
I think ... :-)
that God is God and He will do as He pleases.
The New Testament doesn't seem to have these kind of chess type game stories such as Job ...Christ's sacrifice brought us a whole new relationship with the Father.
I wonder if the reason for this is because THE Son of God actually lived among us for a few years and gained a better understanding of creation.... We were created in God's image but we are not exactly like Him.
To a God who knows no limits I wonder if He totally understood us before He came to make a better way for us?
I am wondering whether death meant the same thing to The Father before He sent His Son to live among us.
Just a lot of wondering and curiosity ... things I hope will be answered some day.
Thursday, May 1, 2008 1:55:00 AM CDT
You said that we really all have someone to answer to. Yes, we have God to answer to, even if we have no one else. But even with God, we still have the freedom to choose. We are, in fact, allowed by God to sin. He doesn't prevent that.
You asked, "Have you never asked yourself why the tree was there in the first place?" Actually, this is something I have asked myself, because in LDS doctrine, we have a teaching about this.
Adam and Eve were told they could eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden, but the tree of knowledge of good and evil they could not eat, because in the day that they would do this, they would die. This death that He spoke of in part was a spiritual death, because sin separates us from God.
You are right when you said, "Do you not see the game here?" It was a game of sorts. God, in fact knew that Adam and Eve would choose to eat the fruit. Satan however, did not understand the plan, and thought that if he could get Adam and Eve to transgress the commandment, he could ruin the plan for Adam and Eve. He thought that by enticing Eve to eat, that God's plan would be thwarted. But in fact, God had already prepared a way for man to be redeemed from sin and death should he fall to transgression. In addition, when Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, their eyes were opened that they knew good from evil. This also was something important for them in the plan. In Lds scripture, in the book of Moses we read about Adam and Eve's feelings after they had their eyes opened and understood the plan of salvation, and that Jesus Christ would offer himself as a ransom for their sins, and bring about the resurrection. "And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient." Moses 5:10-11
Many times in the scriptures we see Satan trying to thwart the plan of God. Let me mention a few other times. When Christ was born, Satan put it in to the heart of King Herod to kill all babies because he had heard from the wise men that the signs of Christ's birth had come to pass. The same thing happened when Moses was born, but in both cases, these babies were spared by God so that they could go on to accomplish their missions in life. Then again, when the Savior had fasted for forty days, Satan came to him and tried to tempt him to worship him. He thought he could take advantage of the Savior when he was at his weakest point, having just fasted. Of course there was never danger of Christ giving in to this temptation, but Satan wanted to try to stop the plan. There are many other instances in the scriptures like this...hmmm...maybe I should blog about this? :)
But suffice it to say, this was all part of the "game", and God's purposes were again fulfilled, as they always will be.
I was confused when you said, "BUT there is NO MENTION of the Sons of God at the creation of the earth shouting for joy in any translation that I have looked into.
Is this something that you have added or was it left out?"
I copied and pasted the scripture that I used directly from my King James version of the Bible. Has this been left out of your translation? That is my concern with modern day translations, I feel that some things are being lost. Here again is the scripture I quoted from Job 38:7 " When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Is this not in your translation of the Bible. Another scripture that talks about our preexistence is Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
You questioned when I said, "You said:
God isn't physically present to make sure that we obey.
I don't quite agree with this ... The Holy Spirit is very present ... our consciences bear witness to that and that is actually better than a limited physical presence."
I agree that the Holy Spirit is here to bear witness to us. But in our religion, we believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy spirit are three separate entities.
You said, "If we were with God in heaven before we were 'created' here on earth what kind of game was this to send us here where there is so much pain and suffering?" This is a very great question, and there is what we believe. There were several reasons for us to come to this earth. The first was for us to obtain a physical body. As spirits, we could only progress so far. How can you learn about health without sickness? How can you learn happiness without having experienced pain? We needed a physical body to be able to experience these things. In addition, one of the great reasons we came to this Earth was to learn faith. Faith is a power, and can only be learned by having to use it....much like a muscle. Jesus Christ's atonement provides that after this life is over, our bodies can be resurrected with our spirits, never to be separated again.
You were right when you said that Jesus needed to live among us. The prophet Alma in the Book of Mormon taught, "And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities." Alma 7:12
I must say Valarosa, that I really admire your questioning mind. You really think deeply about things, and you also seem somewhat open minded to new possibilities. It's refreshing to find someone who really questions and thinks.
LOL and confused you should be ... I was looking at Job 39 ... I was pretty tired when I wrote this ... that'll have to be my lame excuse ... my humble apology.
Job 38:7 NIV
while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?
....
Amplified
When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
....
NASB
When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
....
The Message
While the morning stars sang in chorus and all the angels shouted praise?
....
21st Century KJV
Or who laid the cornerstone thereof, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Back to freedom ... does real freedom carry with it consequences? This is why I say we are not truly free. It is probably a good thing that we are not seeing how we are so easily given over to selfishness which, btw, is the opposite of love.
Out of curiosity where does this extra information that you have about Adam and Eve come from i.e. the Book of Moses? The Catholics have other books in their Bibles as well. I think I remember one called the Book of Judith.
If the Holy Spirit and Christ and the Father are 3 separate entities they must be connected by something better and faster than a MAC or text messages.
Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father and the Holy Spirit is I'm sure the same ... they are all God. If Christ was Immanuel meaning God in the flesh then I can't really see how they are separate ... I see differing functions but not separation between them. I think they act as one. The Holy Spirit is here to convict the world of sin and to guide and comfort the sheep ... an ever present Shepherd.
Thank you for your generosity as we hash out the truth at Something Else ... you are very welcome to hijack Jon's blog ... it is sincerely the whole reason he has made such a blog where we can freely share the things that are on our minds without fear of offending or upsetting the faith of someone else. Our individual faiths are really quite strong in believing in the one and only true God ... we are just trying to rid ourselves of extraneous doctrine that may be simply man made.
However there is nothing new under the sun so I'm sure there have been many groups even like this one before but perhaps not in blogland ;-)
Valarosa,
Whew....I am glad that the scripture that I quoted from Job is still in place! lol
You said, "Back to freedom ... does real freedom carry with it consequences? This is why I say we are not truly free. It is probably a good thing that we are not seeing how we are so easily given over to selfishness which, btw, is the opposite of love." I understand what you are saying. Is it truly freedom if there are consequences. The freedom comes in our freedom to choose. We know that if we steal, we might get caught, we might not. When we make that choice freely, we are deciding that we will take the chance that we won't get caught. The freedom to choose is still in place, but once we make that choice, our freedom to choose the consequence is taken away.
The Book of Moses comes from a collection of scriptures known as the Pearl of Great Price. Here is a link so you can read the introduction that explains about this book of scripture. I'm sorry that I am a little technically challenged, and don't know how to do HTML codes, so here is the link copied and pasted. lol http://scriptures.lds.org/en/pgp/introduction You can read the entire Book of Moses, as well as the Book of Abraham by clicking on "Pearl of Great Price" on the top right of the page.
I think you are right when you said that "If the Holy Spirit and Christ and the Father are 3 separate entities they must be connected by something better and faster than a MAC or text messages." They are in fact connected in purpose. We believe all three are members of the Godhead. If you are interested in learning more about why we believe they are three separate beings, please see this article I posted recently. http://mormonchristianity.blogspot.com/2008/04/only-true-god-and-jesus-christ-whom-he.html (once again, I apoligize for being technically challenged :)
I will indeed continue to frequent Jon's blog, but will leave my more lengthy comments for posts on this one. :)
dang...I'm both technically, and directionally challenged. I meant to say that you can click on the link at the top LEFT of the page. :)
LOL We have much in common in the techy world ... :-)
I'm curious to know what you think of the opening verses of the gospel of John?
John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Valarosa,
This is a great scripture to discuss. Let me break it down verse by verse.
Verse 1: " In the beginning was the Word." Who was "the Word"? To understand this verse, we need to look at verse14. "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." Who was it that was made flesh, and dwelt among us? It was Jesus Christ...the only begotten of the Father. Jesus Christ is "the Word". In our religion we believe that God the Father was the actual physical father of Jesus Christ. God the Father is the father of our spirits, but Jesus Christ is the only one begotten physically.
Now let's go on, "and the Word was with God,". The Word, Jesus Christ, was with God the Father. Next we read,"and the Word was God.". Jesus Christ is a member of the Godhead.
Verse 2: I think verse two would be easier to understand if we read it with the last part of verse one. "and the Word was God. The same (the Word) was in the beginning with God." Jesus Christ, in the beginning was with God the Father.
Verse 3: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." We believe that Jesus Christ, under the direction of God the Father, created this world.
Verse 4: "In him was life; and the life was the light of men." Because of Jesus Christ's atonement and resurrection, we will live after death, and he gives us spiritual life through His atonement.
Jesus Christ was the only begotten son of the Father. We read of the great prayer in the garden of Gethsemanee when he pleaded with His Father, "Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." Luke 22:42 If Jesus and the Father were the same person, why would Jesus pray "not my will, but thine be done"?
I hope I have communicated clearly. Do you understand what I'm saying?
I realized I left out one important detail. We believe that we existed as spirits before this world was created. I thought it might be confusing to say that Jesus Christ created this world if you didn't first understand that we existed before this life.
I guess my question then is w hy would we choose to come here?
I really love the beauty of this place but when I look around me I see little in the way of love and a whole lot of selfishness, individually and corporately.
And we don't even have the worst of it.
I really don't like this place and would go back in the blink of an eye.
;-)
Here is what we believe:
When we were spirits before we came to this Earth, we could only progress so far. Without a body, there was much we couldn't learn. God the Father has a body, and we could see that, and knew that to become like Him, we would need a body too. We came so that we could get a body and learn the things that we could learn with a body. We knew that it would be difficult, but it was worth it to come and get a body and learn. This life is an important part of our eternal progression. In the eternal scheme of things, this life is really a small amount of time. We knew that life would be hard at times, but Christ had already volunteered to come and be our Savior so that we could overcome sin, and also be resurrected and over come death. This is the plan that was set before the world was created. We all shouted together for joy at this plan, and fought against the devil and his angels for the opportunity to come here and have the free agency to choose for ourselves so that we could truly learn. Admittedly, many people choose evil, and many people are hurt by that. But the Savior suffered all things for us. In the Book of Mormon, the prophet Alma teaches, "And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities." Alma 7:12 The Savior can help us to heal from our wounds. He says to us, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Matt. 11:28 This life isn't easy, but the Savior can help us through. As the old saying goes, "I never said it would be easy, I said it would be worth it."
You do a very Good job of explaining your stances on things. Many of those thigs that you explain coincide with what I have been shown by God, that is not in the mainstream of christianity. But many things also do not. For example, God may or may not have a body. the only assurance that we are given in the bible about our impressions of God, is that they will be wrong. Interesting huh.
Thanks for your interesting comments Nate. We don't have much information the Bible about the nature of God. But it only makes sense that He would have a body, because we have a body, and we are created in His image. If God did not have a body, why was it so important for us to come to the Earth to receive one? And if having a body isn't necessary for God, why did Jesus Resurrect His? I think these are important questions to consider. I do, however think that if we were allowed to see God in vision, we would be surprised at His greatness. In the book of Moses, we read that Moses saw God in a vision. The book of Moses speaks about what he was shown in this vision. Then: "And the presence of God withdrew from Moses, that his glory was not upon Moses; and Moses was left unto himself. And as he was left unto himself, he fell unto the earth.
10 And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.
11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.
12 And it came to pass that when Moses had said these words, behold, Satan came tempting him, saying: Moses, son of man, worship me.
13 And it came to pass that Moses looked upon Satan and said: Who art thou? For behold, I am a son of God, in the similitude of his Only Begotten; and where is thy glory, that I should worship thee?
14 For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. But I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so, surely?
15 Blessed be the name of my God, for his Spirit hath not altogether withdrawn from me, or else where is thy glory, for it is darkness unto me? And I can judge between thee and God; for God said unto me: Worship God, for him only shalt thou serve.
16 Get thee hence, Satan; deceive me not; for God said unto me: Thou art after the similitude of mine Only Begotten. Moses 1:9-16
Satan does not have a physical body. This is one of the blessings that he missed out on as a result of his rebellion against God. But it is interesting to read Moses' feelings about how he saw that man, in comparison to the glory of God, is really nothing, and Satan as well, is nothing.
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