After Lehi related his dream to his children, his son Nephi wanted to understand the meaning of the things his father had seen. He had faith that God, through the Holy Ghost was able to reveal these things to him. He said, "For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round." (1 Nephi 10:19) With this faith as his strength, Nephi sat pondering the things that his father had told him.
As he was pondering, an angel appeared to him and asked what he desired. He explained that he desired to see the things his father had seen. He was then shown the tree that his father had seen. He described the fruit as being exceedingly white. He asked the meaning of the tree, and in response was shown a vision of the Savior being born in to the world. The angel asked him if he understood the meaning of the tree. Nephi replied that he understood that it was a symbol of the love of God; and that it was the most desirable thing of all.
TREE: LOVE OF GOD
Nephi was then shown the Savior going forth teaching the people, and them falling at his feet worshipping him. He then understood that the rod of iron was the word of God which leads one to God.
IRON ROD: WORD OF GOD
Nephi was then shown the life of the Savior, as well as His crucifixion. He is then made to understand that the great and spacious building is a representation of the pride of the world. He saw that the fall of it would be great.
GREAT AND SPACIOUS BUILDING: PRIDE OF THE WORLD
He is then shown the future of his people in the Americas, including the Savior's visit after His resurrection. He saw the Savior choose twelve apostles from among the people. He was shown that after the Savior's visit to the people of the Americas, that they would live in righteousness for four generations. But then he saw that they would begin to war against each other.
The angel then explained that the fountain and river of filthy water were a representation of the depths of hell. And the mists of darkness represented the temptations of the devil which he uses to blind men, harden their hearts, and lead them down the wrong paths.
MISTS OF DARKNESS: TEMPTATIONS AND DECEPTIONS OF THE DEVIL
Nephi is then shown many more things that I cannot write in this post. My one fear in writing about this subject was that I would not do it justice. I encourage you to follow this link to read the account for yourself.
One of the great lessons of Lehi's vision is that we must hold on to the word of God if we are to wend our way past the temptations and traps of the devil in this life. We cannot let the pride of the world shame us in to letting go of the word of God and veering off the path. If we hold fast to the words of God, we can partake of the love of God and will be protected from the temptations of the devil.
Below is a video of a hymn we sing to remind us to hold fast to the Iron Rod.
1. To Nephi, seer of olden time,
A vision came from God,
Wherein the holy word sublime
Was shown an iron rod.
[Chorus]
Hold to the rod, the iron rod;
’Tis strong, and bright, and true.
The iron rod is the word of God;
’Twill safely guide us through.
2. While on our journey here below,
Beneath temptation’s pow’r,
Through mists of darkness we must go,
In peril ev’ry hour.
3. And when temptation’s pow’r is nigh,
Our pathway clouded o’er,
Upon the rod we can rely,
And heaven’s aid implore.
4. And, hand o’er hand, the rod along,
Through each succeeding day,
With earnest prayer and hopeful song,
We’ll still pursue our way.
5. Afar we see the golden rest
To which the rod will guide,
Where, with the angels bright and blest,
Forever we’ll abide.
Text: Joseph L. Townsend, 1849–1942
Music: William Clayson, 1840–1887
69 comments:
Nice fictional story, but none of it's true and does not line up with the Bible, The word of God. But that is even sadder that LDS dont not care for what the Bible says, since you guys do not trust it and feel it is corrupt. Rick b
Well, at least you are reading my blog Rick. Maybe you can dispel some of your misconceptions in the process. You might actually get something out of this!
I'm more hoping and praying you will get the truth out of what I say, You LDS always claim we are wrong and lying about you guys, But you never really look into the truth or even look minto what we say. You simply claim we are wrong no matter how much evidence we provide.
This makes you guys very unloving, unchrist like liars. You judge us, but claim we are judging you, you admit to not reading what I write, and you do not do as the Bible say, seacrh the scriptures. Then I am doing as some of your LDS prophets have taught and said, yet when it comes to wehat some LDS prophets and presdients have said, you bury your head in the sand and really do not care what they teach or the fact that I am really doing what they taught.
It's selective teachings from your leaders that you follow and care about. Then you wonder why we say what we say about you. Rick b
Rick, what you don't seem to understand is that you think you know what we believe, but you say so many wrong things that it discredits everything you say. The other problem is that you are so full of anger and hatred, that this also discredits your purpose. I am well educated in what we believe. One glance at your comments and I immediately see untruths, and that's when I stop reading. If you were truly educated, and could discuss in a non-contentious way, then maybe I'd be interested. But your lashing out with false accusations just gives me no desire to enter the conversation. The only reason I have left your comments up to this point, is that I think most people will see your hatred, and immediately be able to discern for themselves. But I have to admit that I am highly tempted to delete because I want to preserve the right kind of spirit here, and you are not bringing that spirit to my blog.
Rick, I have hesitated commenting here, but would like to make one comment. I HAVE read everything you wrote, but as Delirious has posted, your comments start out with inaccurate comments, so it is difficult to accept everything else you say, no matter how many quotes you give, or how accurate some of them are purported to be. I have studied religions of the world as part of my degree, and it is amazing to me that a "Christian", like yourself cannot take the simplest of Christ's teachings to heart. "Love one another. Do good to them who despitefully use you."
Christ taught people to love, not tear down. He condemned no man or woman, and in fact accepted them in spite of their imperfections--even the publican.
Your comments mark you as more in line with the pharisees of Christ's day than his disciples. You try to use the words to catch Delirious in some kind of verbal conundrum, yet she knows what she is talking about, while you are left out without a clue. If you disagree so much with her, quit reading and commenting on her blog. We would all enjoy it much more without your negativity. Have a nice day.
Here is the problem that you guys are dodging, You say I am wrong, yet you never tell me why or how. You say I quote things in an inaccurate manner, yet you never point out what I said was wrong.
Then you say I have a spirit of contention because I do not agree with you, or since I do not agree with you I must be full of anger, yet again the questions you never answer are these?
Why did your prophets claim my beliefs are hatched in hell?
or that my beliefs are an abomination in Gods site, yet I must sit back and simply either believe that, or not question it for fear of being told I am contentions? then I cannot question you guys on it since I will be told I am full of anger.
Now the BoM claims we are to search the scriptures, yet if I do that then I am wrong, It was your prophets that said, If JS lied then he needs to be exposed, your prophets have said, show you where you are wrong if you are wrong, and they will show us where we are wrong if we are wrong. Sadly you guys either are not aware of these teachings, or you are but ignore them.
Then according to Jesus, Hell is real and forever and people are going their, Jesus taught about wolves in Sheeps clothing and false gospels, I suppose that is contention and of the devil. These are all things you guys simply refuse to answer me on and only claim I am wrong but not show me where or how. So how does this line up with the Love of Christ you guys claim to have, since He wants us to pull sinners out of the fire, according to the Gospel of James? Rick b
Rick, you take one statement made about a specific group of people, and you apply it to yourself. Brigham Young made the statement you keep mentioning, but he was talking about the people and religions of his day. They would not listen, and persecuted the LDS people so much that they had to leave the United States boundaries. They hardened their hearts, and perverted even their own religious beliefs to the point that they committed murders, rape pillage. etc. against the mormons. This is what we mean when we tell you that you have misconceptions. Anyone can twist words to mean what they want them to say, if you take them out of context.
Now I could go on and answer point for point each thing you have said against us, but you wouldn't listen anyway. Your mind has already been made up. If you spent half of the energy you have used to research and put us down in finding out if what we have said is true, amazing things would happen. I guarantee that if you look at the teachings of our prophets today, you will find nothing but acceptance for the TRUTH in other religions. Our only suposition is that other religions do not have all the truth, because they do not belive in or accept continuing revelation.
Was Joseph Smith a prophet as we claim? If so, then drop everything and follow him. Test his teachings. Test his prophecies. If they are true and correct, then he is a prophet and all that he did was correct.
I won't respond again. Frankly I don't have time normally. I wish you well in all you do.
Rick, one incorrect thing you said was that we "do not trust" the Bible, and "feel it is corrupt". Here is a previous post I wrote on the subject. word to click on
Dang, Looney taught me how to do that html correctly, but I still messed it up. But if you click on the "word to click on"...it will take you there. lol
Rick, one incorrect thing you said was that we "do not trust" the Bible, and "feel it is corrupt". Here is a previous post I wrote on the subject.
Really, I'm wrong? Then why did GOD COMMAND JS and Sidney Rigdon In the D and C to redo the Bible? That is how we get the JST of the Bible which I happen to own. Now dont go off on a rabbit trail and claim the FLDS or the RLDS own the rights to it.
BY young wanted it from JS wife, she said no, so then he simply dismissed it as wrong and allowed others to have it, but if he could have gotten it you guys would have it, Plus bit of it are used by LDS in the back of the Book as foot notes. So if you say it cannot be trusted, then why use some parts of it.
Then you say the Bible is trust worthy, yet your teachers claims bit and pieces are missing due to careless translators and that some plain and precious parts are missing.
Yet according to stick, the prophets are true and honest, yet not one prophet has come forward and given us these things that are missing.
And the BoM has had 4,000 plus changes made to it, some minor and trivial, but some major doctrinal changes and not one foot note noting any change. Thats deceptive and for years mormons denied any changes made, now they admit them but blow them off as nothing.
Also as a side not, If I am angry and bitter for asking questions, Then why does the Bible teach to search the scriptures? And why does Jesus not rebuke anyone for asking questions, or claim they are bitter and angry? Why is it only people who question the LDS are bitter and angry? Rick b
Yes Joseph Smith did do a translation of the Bible by the gift and power of God. That gift gives a more accurate translation. But by and large, we don't really quote much from the JST, we use the Bible as it stands today. Most scholars would agree that parts have been taken from the Bible through mistranslation, or even intended deletion. We still believe it is the word of God, and we still follow it's teachings. Do we believe the Bible is enough? Do we believe the Book of Mormon is enough? The answer to both questions is no. We believe in modern revelation, and modern scripture. Those two books stand as witnesses of Jesus Christ, and combined contain the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. But we believe that God continually reveals His will and scripture, even in modern times. That is part of what makes this a living church, and living gospel. So no, we do not feel the Bible is corrupt, but we do feel important truths have been lost from it. Having a living prophet allows us to regain those lost truths.
As far as being bitter and angry....Your words are in deed bitter and angry.... I didnt' need to point that out, it is obvious. I'll be honest, at times when I read your comments, I feel the same as when I read the comments from an excommunicated Mormon. Would that be your situation? Why are you so angry Rick? Why do you care what we believe? There are many religions out there that differ from yours. Why do you feel the need to attack? Where does this anger come from?
Nope I was never a mormon, so no I am not an ex mormon. I'm not bitter or angry, I speak to LDS because I believe God has told me to. I believe you guys have a false gospel and are leading people to hell with it.
I also share with Atheists, and JW's and anyone who is willing to speak. Also I know from experience that lds tell me it's wrong to say they are wrong, yet you claim RLDS, AND FLDS are in fact wrong, and you tend not to share with JW's.
Pretty much you guys only talk with people who listen and believe, if they dont believe you move on, that is not what your prophets taught.
We read in the verse's below from the Book Of Nephi, which is found in the Book of Mormon. It says many plain and precious things have been removed from the bible.
1 Ne. 13: 28-29, 35, 40
28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.
29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.
• • •
35 For, behold, saith the Lamb: I will manifest myself unto thy seed, that they shall write many things which I shall minister unto them, which shall be plain and precious; and after thy seed shall be destroyed, and dwindle in unbelief, and also the seed of thy brethren, behold, these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb.
• • •
40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.
Can the LDS tell me what exactly is missing, or what are the plain and precious things that are missing. I would add also, if you cannot tell me what is missing, then how exactly do you know that what claims to be missing is plain and precious?
Lets add also, why would God allow something to turn up missing or to be removed or lost, or why would he allow His Word to be corrputed in light of Psalms 138:2 God puts His Word avobe His Name
Also I would ask, If you know what is missing, How come the Prophet has not restored it, and If the BoM is the restored Gospel, how come that the missing things are not also restored in the Gospel? Just some questions to think about.
So you claim you have on going revelation and that is what proves your church is true, Yet the on going revelation has never cleared up this matter, I believe it is because your prophets really do not hear from God and they really could never answer this question. If you claim I am wrong then fine, but explain why your prophets have never answered this question or solved this problem? Rick b
STICK:
When ever I or any other believer quotes Scripture from the Bible to an LDS member, if they do not agree with it or like it, they simply say, well that's your interpretation. So lets look at what Brigham Young said about that.
In the book Discourses of BY pg 194 1925 edition also found in JOD vol 1 pg 237 a person ask's BY a question.
I ask you, brother B, how I must believe the Bible, and how shall you and every other follower of the Lord Jesus Christ believe it? BY reply's with. "Brother Mormon, how do you believe it?" I believe it just as it is. I do not believe in putting any man's interpretation upon it, whatever, unless it should be directed by the Lord himself in some way. I do not believe we need interpreters and expounders of the Scriptures, to wrest them from there literal, plain, simple meaning.
Brigham Young feels we should be able to read it and take the Bible at face value
What did Brigham Young mean when he said, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy."? (Journal of Discourses 11:269) Rick b
Rick there are many teachings in the Book of Mormon that restore lost truths and fill in some of the gaps. One of these has to do with infant baptism. The Book of Mormon also gives more information on the resurrection, and the plan of salvation; information not found in the Bible. We get a clearer understanding of the atonement from the Book of Mormon. We learn about living prophets and modern revelation. We also learn more about the covenants that God has made with his people. As far as modern revelation goes, we have been given more information about temple worship, and the carrying of the gospel to the world, as well as how to conduct the affairs of the church in this day. So you see, those precious truths have been restored.
I believe that God allows men free agency. The Bible was protected and preserved, but men's free agency did affect some of what was included. But you see, the Bible didn't have to contain all of the truths because God knew that the Book of Mormon would come forth to supplement the Bible. He also knew living prophets would bring forth modern revelation to supplement the truths of those two books of scripture.
I do not agree with what you said, and I say that because I have read the BoM. We raed what took place in the temple in the Bible, It was for Jews only, not gentiles. Then only the high priest could enter once a year, That is a far cry from the LDS temples.
As far as infant baptism, I do not hold to that because the Bible does not teach it. King David said He knew his child would go to be with God, King David said my child will not return but I will go be with him one day. If I child cannot make the decision to be baptized for himself, then he/she only gets wet.
The Bible is very clear on the plan of salvation, we need to believe only nothing more, no works like LDS teach, even the Bible condemns works to save us.
what about this,
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that Elohim (God the Father in Mormonism) was once a mortal man and that he was not always God?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God has a body of flesh and bones?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God is married in heaven?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that men can become Gods?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that temple participation is necessary to become exalted?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach the blood of Christ does not cleanse certain sins?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it say there is more than one God?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it say males must hold either the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthood?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that there are "three degrees of glory"?
As I said before, all scripture works together with modern revelation. The core doctrine of Jesus Christ that deals with the atonement, baptism, and repentance are found in the Book of Mormon. Other things are found in additional scripture. I should say that we only have part of the records that were kept by ancient prophets. It is possible that some of these things were contained in those records. But the prophet Mormon chose to only include these things because he felt they were of the most worth in teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that Elohim (God the Father in Mormonism) was once a mortal man and that he was not always God?
--This is a teaching of Lorenzo Snow, and was not included in the Book of Mormon. It has never been declared as official church doctrine. However that doesn't diminish the importance of these teaching. We do believe we are literal children of God, and can grow to be like Him.
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God has a body of flesh and bones?
This teaching is found in the Doctrine and Covenants. And of course the Book of Mormon contains a testament that Jesus Christ showed his physical resurrected body to the people of the Book of Mormon.
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God is married in heaven?
--This isn't taught anywhere in scripture, but is common sense. If God is our father, then we must have a mother too.
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that temple participation is necessary to become exalted?
--This is a sacred teaching that has come through modern revelation. It is not something that is made known to the world, but contains things you only learn if you are found worthy to enter the temple. But the Book of Mormon talks quite a bit about the people going to the temple in those times.
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?
--This point is made clear in the Pearl of Great Price. In fact, we believe that all of us are spirit brothers and sisters. Jesus Christ is our elder spirit brother.
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach the blood of Christ does not cleanse certain sins?
--Alma 39: 6
6 For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness.
Where in the Book of Mormon does it say there is more than one God?
--Not sure what you mean by this. We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. That makes up the Godhead. God the Father will always be our God, regardless of our progression in the eternities.
Where in the Book of Mormon does it say males must hold either the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthood?
Alma 13: 6-8, 10, 14, 18 The names Aaronic and Melchizedek aren't used specifically, but the reference is to the original name which has to do with "after the Holy order of God".
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that there are "three degrees of glory"?
--This specific teaching is found in the Bible and in the Doctrine and Covenants.
Can you see how all scripture works together?
Woot! My html link worked!
The book of Mormon, the D and C and the pearl all contradict the Bible and or each other.
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach the blood of Christ does not cleanse certain sins?
--Alma 39: 6
6 For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness.
This contradicts 1st John 1:8-9
As I said before how you guys view the temple and what you do goes against the scripture and how the Jews used it.
Take the Bible and the issue of one God or many, LDS deny the trinity, yet God said in the Bible, He is the only one, He knows of no other gods and none of us will become one, none are formed before or after Him.
Then if the LDS Godhead really is 3 separate Gods, then God lied because He said I know of No other gods and then if Jesus is a God also, God the father lied.
Then in the pearl of great price, God says, their are no other gods that I know of, their are none before me nor after me. But then God later says in the pearl, I sat in the counsel of the gods and we created. That is just a few of the problems.
Then outside of the scriptures, JS and BY and LDS prophets have taught a ton of stuff that LDS believe, but then when we question it, you guys then say it's not official doctrine.
If it's not official doctrine then why act like it is? Take Adam God for example, BY was clear when he said this was doctrine, yet LDS deny it, yet then in the king follet discourse JS teaches that we can be Gods and their are millions of gods and LDS accept that as truth.
Why do you deny Adam God when BY said it was doctrine and it was only two pages long? LDS claim he was wrong, yet the King Follet Discourse is 11 pages long and you guys believe that. This is just a few of many problems. Rick b
Stick, you said I do not understand the Bible and I need to love people, How do you handle this scripture that teaches and boldly states to rebuke people? I guess Delirious can tackle that also if she cares to explain how I can be hateful and angry yet I am doing as the scripture teaches.
2 Timothy 4:1-5 (New American Standard Bible)
"Preach the Word"
1(A)I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to (B)judge the living and the dead, and by His (C)appearing and His kingdom:
2preach (D)the word; be ready in season and out of season; (E)reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great (F)patience and instruction.
3For (G)the time will come when they will not endure (H)sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4and (I)will turn away their ears from the truth and (J)will turn aside to myths.
5But you, (K)be sober in all things, (L)endure hardship, do the work of an (M)evangelist, fulfill your (N)ministry.
Rick b
Well, Rick neither of us agree with each other, and I'm not going to argue about it.
I'm not asking you to argue, I'm simply saying scripture teaches that we need to defend the faith and I am doing that, where LDS seem to avoid doing that under the banner of things like contention. Or I suspect they cannot answer questions like Adam God and why did BY clearly state it is doctrine and our/your salvation hangs upon if we believe it or not.
But then again that is one that makes LDS very uncomfortable due to the fact if it is true according to BY, Then as of today it is taught as false doctrine. So if the prophet lead people astray, then your entire church is based upon lies, but if BY was wrong then he still is leading people astray because if he was wrong on that, what else could he be wrong on? Rick b
D and C 66:7 68:1,9 go into the church's public or private to discuss this stuff. D and C 6:9-11 says convince us of our error if we have any.
Why do I get accused of being contentious for doing what the scriptures teach. Now let me add this, would you agree it is good to listen to the mormon prophets? If so then I am.
pg 188 of doct of salvation vol 1 I quote. "CHURCH STANDS OR FALLS WITH JOSEPH SMITH. MORMONISM, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. their is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed: his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false".
Why if your president and prophet said to do this and I believe it, I am in the wrong?. Did your Prophet not read that verse about contention? Let me also add what the apostle Orson Pratt said.
The Seer pg 15. I quote " if we cannot convince you by reason nor by the word of God that YOUR religion is wrong we will not persecute you".
Notice he is speaking to people of others faiths. And he states he is trying to show they are wrong through talks, but says if we cannot convince you. Well I don't feel I have persecuted anyone if they disagree. Let me add what else he said.
I quote Orson pratt still pg 15.
"we ask from you the same generosity--protect us in the exercise of our religious rights--CONVINCE US of our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of God, and we will be ever grateful for the information, and you will ever have the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God redeeming your fellow beings from the darkness which you may see enveloping their minds".
I am just trying to look at mormonism in a logical way and point out what I believe are problems. I find it interesting that mormons of old were willing to tell others they were wrong or be open to talks, But it does not appear to be that way today. Then even after what Orson Pratt said, he does and feels should be done with the LDS I am still accused of being Contentious for sharing.
Here is what some of the former LDS Prophets and presidents have said about christians
"B Young: "with a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199). I quote 3rd president John Taylor (Brigham Young quotes Mr. Taylor) "Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell, the eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked onto the earth" (J.O.D 6:176). I quote Heber C. Kimball "Christians-those poor, miserable priests Brother Brigham was speaking about-some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth" (J.O.D 5:89)." then we can add the first vision by Joseph Smith. If God really did speak to him then he said all the christian creeds are an abomination in his sight.
I would think the Prophets who said that, had the Devil's Spirit of Contention. Stick seems to claim these saying were for the Christians back then only, BY and others made these as blanket statments that can fit any group in any year.
Rick b
When I first started this blog, I had the same attitude as you, that I should argue my beliefs. I felt like it was my duty to defend the gospel. I visited the blog of someone who had opposite beliefs from mine, and I started a conversation with him. He would throw out accusations, and I would make my defense. This went on for quite some time. I spent a lot of time showing him scriptures and explaining our beliefs. What I eventually came to see was that this was the very definition of "Bible bashing", and that it did no good. His opinion of my beliefs didn't change, and neither did my opinion of his. All it did was cause contention.
From that time on, I have decided that I don't want to get involved in contention. God is not the author of contention, Satan is. And when those feelings of anger swell up, those are not from God. When I read your comments, I feel that you are angry. And sometimes the attacks are so unwarranted that they make me angry. So I really don't want to go there. It kind of reminds me of the Star Wars "Dark side". I could easily give in to that anger and throw accusations back, but I find more peace and direction from God when I follow the promptings of the spirit that tell me not to argue.
The next problem is that I can't discuss a subject with you. I picked out the subject of whether or not we believe the Bible. You answered with 50 different topics. You can't even accept the very basics of our beliefs, yet you want to discuss the "mysteries". There is just no reason to try to convince you, or "bring you light" as you often say. You aren't interested in being converted, you are only interested in trying to prove me wrong. You say you feel called of God to do this. I have a lifetime of communication with God that has confirmed to me that I'm on the right path. So obviously, we both should do what we believe God has told us to do. Unfortunately, in the case of us discussing, it is oil and water, and does not mix. You say you just want to discuss, but every response is an argument. I don't want to argue. I don't want the spirit of contention. That is not going to drive my reason for discussing the gospel of Jesus Christ.
You can believe what you want, but simply saying you are wrong in not contention, Jesus told people they were wrong.
Then when you say I am angry, I'm not angry, yet the Bible is very clear, their are false prophets and teachers leading people astray. If you dont believe that then thats your choice, The so called mystery I pose are in fact not mystery's, They were clearly taught by your leaders.
Then the Bible is clear, the Devil can come in the form of an angel of light and deceive people, I happen to believe you are one of them due to all the problems that are in mormonism, and just because you have warm fuzzy feelings that your correct does not make it so.
What a sad and long eternity you will face when you hear from God, depart from me I never knew you, and you try telling God He was wrong and JS was correct, then you will be with out excuse as the bible teaches.
It really is more loving of me to try and show you as scripture commands that hell is real, than to simply let you go to hell with out ever saying a word. Rick b
Sorry Rick, but I'm just not interested. And I've decided you have hi-jacked my blog long enough. I will now be deleting any negative comments of yours. If this were a public newspaper, that would be one thing, but this is my personal blog, and I don't want your anti-Mormon propaganda.
Howdy Rick b,
Since you seem to know a lot about what various people believe or don't believe, perhaps you could help me with a puzzle:
There are a lot of groups today like the United Presbyterians, the Evangelical Lutherans, and especially the United Church of Christ who deny the miracles of the Bible and assert that Jesus was just a good teacher. Then you have people like Yoder who assert that Jesus was just a good teacher, but that the Bible provided us corrupted teachings of Jesus and only modernist scholars can correctly present the true teachings of Jesus. All kinds of groups claim to be Christian but are following this prophet.
I am not a Mormon, but on the other hand, the Mormons I know have done a much better job at holding to Biblical teachings, affirming the miracles of Jesus, teaching the Bible to their children, and proclaiming that it is only through repentance and faith in Jesus - the same Jesus we talk about in the Bible - that we can be saved. How many emergent churches do the same?
Which of the above groups would you consider the most heretical? Can you rank them?
Delirious, can I follow up here? Or would you prefer to shift that conversation elsewhere?
You are welcome to follow up here Looney if you would like. When you have had enough, let me know. ;)
And thank you for your kinds words Looney. This is a "mutual appreciation club" ;)
"Let us not grow weary in doing good ..." ;-)
There are some people out there who even ride bulls ...
Loony, how can I give an honest reply? It would simply be taken as hateful and deleted. Then if I am told it will not be deleted, I still cannot answer unless I am allowed to speak freely and that means covering what you said about the LDS church. Rick b
Rick, it seems to me you have a lot of options: You can try following up here, you can post the follow up on your blog, or you are welcome to start a dialog under one of the non-topic'd pictures on my blog.
Well, Rick, I'm sure it can't be any worse than what you've already written, so that's why I told Looney that it would be okay for him to have the discussion here. Slander away. ;)
You say slander away, Please, why is it LDS do not make note of all the changes in the books you guys use? 4,000 changes to the BoM. I have the Original hard bound history of the Church and the paper back version, around 4,000 changes between them, then the changes in the D and C and the Pearl.
In the D and C the Lectures of Faith were removed, at one time they were doctrine but since removed and no note of it ever happening. Thats dis honest.
Then I have seen this happen many times, I ask mormons, what do you believe, They turn it on me and ask me, what I believe, not thinking I answer them.
I say Jesus is God, No works, Trinity Bible only, They reply with, we believe the same way as you do.
Thats a lie, You guys teach works, plus grace, Many gods, Deny the trinity, how is that the same as I believe? Thats just a start. Rick b
Just for reference... The conversation is now between you and Looney.
Rick, I have been dialoging with Mormons a long time and never heard one of them mention anything other than repentance and salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.
We have plenty to disagree with on theology, but I would note something else: Satan was in the presence of God and has a theology which is more correct than Augustine, Calvin or any other theologian. He knows the Bible cover to cover without any inhibition of language or anything else. In spite of all this, we know that Satan isn't saved.
On the other hand, the thief on the cross may not have known anything about theology, yet we all know him to be saved.
So is salvation about a relationship with Jesus? Or is it about theology?
(Just so I can keep my aging brain straight, may I request we try to minimize issues on any comment?)
Honestly, From the looks of it, Loony is not mormon and not aware of all the changes and problems, but then you are and if you dont reply then its either you know I am right and refuse to answer, or you can simply cry slander and by not replying try and make it appear that way. But remember, according to Gal 1:8-9 all who teach a false or different gospel will go to hell, so you cannot say to God someday, I never knew, God will tell you He sent someone and you refused to listen. Rick b
Loony said
Rick, I have been dialoging with Mormons a long time and never heard one of them mention anything other than repentance and salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.
Just so I get this correct, your saying you have never met a mormon that teaches Salvation along with works? Your saying all LDS you have spoken whit teach salvation alone by the shed blood of Christ, Is this Correct? Rick b
Rick wrote:
"Just so I get this correct, your saying you have never met a Mormon that teaches Salvation along with works? Your saying all LDS you have spoken whit teach salvation alone by the shed blood of Christ, Is this Correct?"
I have spent time with Mormon missionaries going over this point and have not heard anything that conflicts. Delirious is a teacher, so she can correct me if I have spoken incorrectly.
Now I should note that we can get into ultra-hair splitting of the sort that produced the Pelagian Disputes/Heresy, but it seems to me that Mormons are well within the Evangelical mainstream as far as salvation by faith, while not taking this as a license to depravity. They do teach their youth and instill values in them, but which of us do not want to do the same? Setting aside the book of Mormon, I hear they spend more time teaching the Bible to their youth than most evangelicals. Should this make us upset with the LDS or provoke evangelicals to get their act together?
Furthermore, if the Mormons did believe in salvation by Mormon works, would they not be compelled to say that non-Mormons who claimed Christianity weren't saved?
Loony said
I have spent time with Mormon missionaries going over this point and have not heard anything that conflicts. Delirious is a teacher, so she can correct me if I have spoken incorrectly.
Honestly I can be slow at times, This does not answer my question, please be direct and say, Yes they teach works salvation or no they do not. Once you answer that then I will explain why it really is a big deal that they do.
And if Delirious wants to chime and and state one way or the other as to if Mormons teach works salvation or not I would like to hear that. Rick b
Rick b
Loony, I see you do not want to reply. Here is my take on this, Delirious claims I will and am slandering her church, yet she cannot refute what I say, so she makes claims like, I only talk about the Mysteries of God. Yet BY was so clear about Adam God and Adam is our God, and our salvation hangs upon what we believe, that this subject has been debated hotly for years, even books have been written about it. So it is not a mystery as she claims.
Then when I asked about works, I notice Mormons try and dodge that question and claim they are saved by Christ alone. So Even Delirious does not answer you on that subject, I suspect it's because the LDS you claim you spoke with have told you, Grace alone. Well I hate to ruin it for you but either those LDS do not know what their church teaches and they are ignorant, Or they flat out lied to you.
Now here is a real problem, In the D and C, it states A MAN CANNOT BE SAVED IN IGNORANCE. So if in fact those LDS are ignorant, how can they be saved according to their scripture?
If on the other hand they are lying, then how can they be saved when they need to use lies and deceit to try and get you to join their church. Now for the best part, The issue of works is taught in the BoM, It states, "WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE, PLUS WORKS, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO" So if they deny it they either do not understand their scripture, or have never read it. So where is the hate and slander that I'm accused of. I showed it's the LDS who are lying, not me. Rick b
Rick, I did answer you exactly as the majority of evangelical churches would answer and exactly as the New Testament teaches: Faith in Christ, but true faith is worthless if it doesn't transform people. The Bible also puts terms and conditions on faith in the book of James.
Are you saying we can only be Christians if we have faith in Christ without transformation of our character? (While you are at it, maybe you could tell me which religion you are ... and those cakes look very tempting!)
Looney, I know this will surprise you but I hate religion and do not have religion. Following Jesus is not a religion, having Jesus as Lord and Savior is a relationship with the True and Living God.
Religion is mans attempt to work his/her way into Gods presence. I go to a non-denominational, we go chapter by chapter, verse by verse through the Bible.
Also How do you handle the Verses where Paul says if anyone, even an angel teaches any other gospel, let them be accursed, or where Paul said, if you do not even Love Jesus you are accursed, in other words, going to hell. The Mormons teach another Gospel that is different from Paul, and since they have a different gospel then that means they have a different jesus, and if they have a different jesus, then they cannot love the real Jesus.
Plus despite what you say, either the LDS are ignorant or they are lying, If their really is a 3rd choice then maybe someone else can tell me. Its either they are not aware of what their doctrine says, or they are but they forget to tell people that.
I have spoken with many a mormon missionary, I ask them about works and they deny it, Why is that? I suspect it is like this, How many people honestly would convert to mormonism if they were told they were required to do works to be saved. Plus the Bible teaches against salvation by works.
As a side note, If you have any recipes you want to share, I post them along with pictures and recipes under the "other peoples recipes" and give them credit if you or anyone else has anything they want to share. Rick b
O, before I forget, Looney, you cannot answer for someone else but here is something to think about. How am I slandering the LDS, When in fact they do teach works salvation, and I did state that? But yet they also try to avoid being forth right about it unless pressed for info, and then they tend to deny it unless you can quote chapter and verse, they they somehow remember and go, yep your right, Hows that me slandering?
also as I stated, BY did teach Adam God and state that OUR SALVATION HANGS UPON WHAT WE DO WITH THAT INFO, BY did teach it, so hows that me lying and slandering? If LDS deny it thats fine, but thats not a lie on my part. Rick b
Looney said Are you saying we can only be Christians if we have faith in Christ without transformation of our character?
This brings up a good point. According to LDS people on Death row, IE, those who commit murder, and those who are on the death bed and about to die, these guys cannot be saved because they have not done any good works.
As Believers in Christ, I can be dying on my death bed, confess Jesus with my mouth as Lord AND Savior then drop dead and know that I will be saved. Rick b
Rick, I think I made it pretty clear that this is not my conversation, but is between you and Looney. Looney said, "Delirious is a teacher, so she can correct me if I have spoken incorrectly." As he spoke correctly, I felt no need to comment.
I have had these discussions many times, and have answered every one of your questions for someone else in the past. However, I choose not to discuss with you because of your tone. Any discussion with you turns in to an argument. Contention is of the devil, and I simply have no interest in a contentious conversation. You've accused me of being hateful, worshipping a false Christ, having no love, being ignorant...hmm...what else? The accusations fly, but no real respectful discussion has ever occurred between us. So I choose to bow out.
Contention is not of the devil, Being deceived is of the devil. If contention is of the Devil, Then Jesus and His apostles are of the Devil. Jesus making a whip of cords and beating the backs of people, Paul telling people they can go go hell and calling blindness upon a false prophet could be taken as contention. So either they are of the devil, or Contention is not of the devil.
That saying is nothing more than a tool used by the devil to keep people from looking into the truth. Rick b
"Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom." Prov.13:10
"The beginning of strife is as when one letteth out water: therefore leave off contention, before it be meddled with. " Prov. 17:14
"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." Titus 3:9
"For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another." 3 Nephi 11:29 (I know you don't believe the Book of Mormon, but I do, and I follow it.)
Nuff said.
O-yea, People said to Jesus, LORD, LORD Did we not cast out Demons in your name? Did we not heal the sick or raise the dead in your name? Jesus said to them, Depart from me into everlasting fire your workers of iniquity for I never knew you.
Funny how people who did miracles in the name of Jesus are not saved, and he says they are workers of iniquity, seems a very contentions thing to say to people.
So works do not save us, Jesus never disputed those works, so you think you know Jesus, the question really is, Does Jesus know you?
LDS PERSON: IT'S AN UNLOVING THING TO SAY YOUR GOING TO HELL.
Jesus said, Your going to hell.
Rick asks: Jesus said it, so is it unloving as the LDS claim? Or is it loving to tell people they are going to hell and try and keep them from Going?
LDS reply: ??????????? No answer.
Rick says, Just as I thought, they want to believe what they want to believe.
LDS SAY: It's contention to tell people they are wrong.
The Bible speaks of false teachers, names names and says people want to believe lies and have their itching ears tickled.
Rick asks: If the Bible is true on these things, then are they really Contention and of the Devil?
LDS Reply: ???????????? No reply, we must remain silent.
Rick Says, Just as I thought, you want to believe what you want to believe. Rick B
Rick b
The BoM says that because it is not Gods word, it is another gospel that goes against what Paul in Gal 1
:8-9 said. Nuff said. Rick b
Delirious said 3 Nephi 11:29 (I know you don't believe the Book of Mormon, but I do, and I follow it.)
Well if this is true, then you lied because you agree that looney is correct when LDS do not teach a salvation by works based system, yet it is THE BOM That teaches works plus grace, so either you lied, or you are ignorant and not really know what your BoM teaches. If their is a 3rd choice then fill me in.
Then if you believe the BoM, then I am guessing you believe the D and C, and it teaches in the D and C that a man cannot be saved in ignorance. How is this slander and lies on my part, does not your scripture teach this stuff? And you are claiming it does not? Rick b
Rick, lets slow down and be polite!
A relationship with Jesus is what my life is all about, and every day I consider the cross and my inadequacy as I pray to God. Could you tell us what is needed to come into a relationship with Jesus? I mean how did you meet Christ?
Looney, why do you tell me to slow down and be polite, yet you ignore the fact that Delirious really is ignorant or a lair.
She either is ignorant because the BoM IS VERY CLEAR, WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE AND WORKS, or She knows this and deny's it and is a liar.
People wonder why I get frustrated, I get accused of slander, but I slandered no one, and no evidence was put forth, and I exposed Delirious as either a ignorant person or a liar, and everyone only jumps on me. Why is that?
I have no problem sharing how I came to Christ, but will do that later so this question does not go ignored by my testimony. Rick b
Rick, the reason for asking your testimony was to see if we can find common ground on what it means to be a Christian - and also because I genuinely do like to hear about what Jesus does in peoples' lives.
What good is it to tell people what being a Christian isn't if we haven't clearly explained what being a Christian is?
looney, First off I do care for being accused and lied about, then after being lied about being told it is in fact me that is lying and doing the slander.
Why is you you try and tell me we need to focus on Christ when in fact by you siding with the LDS and saying I am what they claim, but then I show with evidence they lied you stick your head in the sand and ignore them, you call me to account but do not do it to them, how is that loving?
Then Just because we can have common ground does not mean we are both saved. I can say here is common ground, We both believe reading the bible is good, we believe marriage is good, we both believe following the law is good, or doing good works, etc. But as Jesus Said, not every one who does good works is saved. Or as Paul taught, everyone who teaches another gospel will be cursed, despite the fact we can and do agree on certain things.
Sadly you guys claim I lie and slander and you are quick to get on me about it, yet you are beyond slow to point it out to others, You pick and choose. My favorite or even better my Life verse is Romans 2:11
God does not show favoritism.
Jesus Rebuked the religious leaders for things they said and did, but he also rebuked His own disciples. You all can say what you want about me, but those who are really truly honest with themselves and really are open will see what a bunch of hypocrites you are because of how one sided you are. If your not going to be honest and confront both sides and then dodge the issue or not reply to it, then why should I bother talking to you since it would appear that you only want to hear what you want to hear.
Now if you feel I am wrong then please explain in detail how I am wrong. Example, Delirious states you are correct when LDS claim no such doctrine as works based salvation. Since the BoM teaches it, how can she be telling the truth? Or if she is not aware of it, then how can she not be living in ignorance? Then THEIR DOCTRINE, the D and C teaches no one can be saved in ignorance. So if she is neither ignorant or lying then what exactly am I missing?
Supposedly she is a teacher and should know this stuff, and according to her I am nothing more than a lying slanderer, yet no evidence is provide of me lying or commenting slander. Then you dodge the issue and wonder why I get frustrated. Rick b
Rick, I did not accuse you of lying. I myself have been guilty of passing around "lies and slanders". Christians get overly enthusiastic about passing around rumors without doing any fact checking, which has the sad result of "lies and slanders" being passed around unwittingly and causing a lot of anger, confusion and frustration. At my church I have had to stop and correct a few of these rumors. When things get too heated up, it is best to leave things be for awhile.
You mention the Book of Mormon and Doctrines and Covenants. The Catholics base their doctrine on the Council of Trent, yet 95% of Catholics never heard of the Council of Trent. Reformed types base on Calvin, yet 99% of reformed types have never read Institutes Of The Christian Religion. Thus, I am primarily interested in what they tell me they believe, not what someone else tells me they believe. They also read and memorize the Bible, which we all know to have great power.
Of course that is just a smoke screen! I am reading the Qur'an at the moment along with another medieval church history but have never read the Doctrines and Covenants, while the Book of Mormon I read 30 years ago. How much time have you invested reading and researching the Book of Mormon and Doctrines and Covenants?
Lets see here, Yet again I get accused of things by Delirious, and I show she lied, You tell me to cool it yet say nothing to her, why do you do that? You say you step in at your church yet you do not do that here. By turning away you condone what she says and does.
Then I have read all 4 standard works by the Mormons and have attended 3-4 of their church services and went to SLC for two weeks to tour the temple and walk the streets speaking with LDS.
I own the 1958 and 1966 books of Mormon doctrine and the entire hard bound and paper back versions of the History of the church, as I stated before their are roughly 4,000 changes with NO MENTION OR FOOT NOTES of these changes ever taking place. I also own many other Mormons books. Yes I read and study them.
I also have issued this challenge, I claim LDS tend to lie about what they believe, I have said anyone, Mormon or otherwise let me know your coming to my house, I will call up and have MM from a local ward show up to my house. I will ask them very direct honest questions, watch them lie about what they really believe. It has happened so many times it's scary. I know the Book of Mormon and D and C very well from reading them and talking to LDS at my house about them and using them in talks.
Then also even if Delirious wants to stop talking, at the very least, if she were honest then she could tell me exactly what slander and lies I have spread when she said she agrees with you that LDS DO NOT TEACH WORKS, yet the BoM does. She will never answer because she knows It is in the BoM and she either lied or is ignorant. So at best all she can do is say, You keep telling me I am a liar or ignorant so I refuse to talk. Well Why talk when you were busted for it, at best you can only dig a deeper hole.
So Looney, stop dodging the question and answer it, why tell me to cool down and not get on her for lying, if she did not lie then she clearly does not know her teaching and she still needs to be called to account for mis speaking.
Also if you guys have ever heard of the Fairlds website, I spent over a year on that site and over 500 posts. So I have experience speaking with the hard core LDS who only look to debate, and many of them dodged and lied about me also, it was a lot of the same like here. I'm accused of lying until I present evidence, but they never call each other to account. Rick B
Rick, with all that arguing, have you ever successfully converted a Mormon?
Looney, why do you simply accuse me of stuff and side with the LDS, Yet despite the fact that I showed she is a liar and I have not slandered anyone, you still stick your fingers in your ears and go LA,LA,LA,LA,LA, and ignore the bigger picture? Rick b
Rick, the big picture I see is this:
California is busy establishing the religion of godless depravity and imposing this on our kids. The goals of sickos is to turn all of the US into an extended Sodom and Gomorrah, while using the schools to undermine Christianity at every point.
The LDS has been the most faithful partner in this war, but various evangelical churches are at war both with one another and with the LDS.
You really need to go back and examine the question seriously: What does it mean to be a follower of Jesus? Who is truly a Christian?
As I said, I have not accepted the book of Mormon. That doesn't mean that I need to wage a private war against the LDS.
Looney said You really need to go back and examine the question seriously: What does it mean to be a follower of Jesus? Who is truly a Christian?
Better yet I think you should, You take sides with a person who clearly lied and accused me of slander with out evidence, and you jump on me, yet say nothing to her and refuse to even talk about it.
Looney, seeing as how you do not know Mormon scripture and you claim I am waging war on them please explain this then.
D and C 66:7 68:1,9 go into the church's public or private to discuss this stuff. D and C 6:9-11 says convince us of our error if we have any.
I am doing this, yet I get accused of waging war and being hateful?
What about this, pg 188 of doct of salvation vol 1 I quote. "CHURCH STANDS OR FALLS WITH JOSEPH SMITH. MORMONISM, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. their is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed: his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false".
That was said by a mormon prophet/ president. So I am doing as the LDS prophet teaches and the faithful lds IGNORE their own prophets and I get accused of waging war and being hateful. How do you reply? Rick b
Rick...off the topic of religion.... I have a cooking challenge for you. :) When I was growing up, my mother was a terrible cook. She would even agree with that statement. So maybe my tastes have been affected from not having tasty food as a child, but some of her food I grew to like, probably because it was better than most of what she cooked. lol Well, I recently posted on my recipe blog a recipe that she used to cook. Right now, it tastes like cafeteria food. But I think the basic idea is good, it just needs some adjusting. What do you think could be done to make this a better recipe? http://deliriousrecipes.blogspot.com/
Rick, I have been following these comments. I don't want to get into the discussion, but I do want to let you know that the people you are commenting with are very good people.
I have known Delirious since the day she was born. She is a very fine person, and is neither a liar nor ignorant. She has lived an exceptionally good life and has a strong love for our Savior Jesus Christ.
I have not met Looney in person, but I have followed his blog for quite awhile now, and see that he also has love and faith for Jesus Christ, and that he is also a very good person.
I want you to know from a third party what righteous people you are discussing these things with.
Matthew 7:20 By their fruits ye shall know them.
Delirious, Do me a favor, the question you wrote about cooking, cut and paste it onto my blog, you can put it under my newest topic and I will do it as it's own post and do my best to help you out on it. I want it on my blog because My goal is to help people cook and share ideas, but also I want to learn from others and this can be both a learning and teaching experience.
Also if you have a food blog lets swap links, I will post yours and you can post mine. Rick b
Inklings, Just because you know Delirious does not make her saved. She can be a morally good person yet deceived.
I believe she is lying in the point of, the BoM does teach a a works based salvation, so either she knows this and lied when she agreed with looney, or she is ignorant of this teaching and therefore ignorant. If you think their is a 3rd option please fill me in on it. Rick b
Delirious, Do me a favor, the question you wrote about cooking, cut and paste it onto my blog, you can put it under my newest topic and I will do it as it's own post and do my best to help you out on it. I want it on my blog because My goal is to help people cook and share ideas, but also I want to learn from others and this can be both a learning and teaching experience.
Also if you have a food blog lets swap links, I will post yours and you can post mine. Rick b
Inklings, Just because you know Delirious does not make her saved. She can be a morally good person yet deceived.
I believe she is lying in the point of, the BoM does teach a a works based salvation, so either she knows this and lied when she agreed with looney, or she is ignorant of this teaching and therefore ignorant. If you think their is a 3rd option please fill me in on it. Rick b
Delirious Thanks for posting it on my food blog, in case you do not see it this was the reply I left.
Hello Delirious, That sounds like fun, I love challenges like that. Give me about 2 weeks or so, I need time to make it as is to see what it is like, then try and work on it. I will turn it into it's own topic when I am done. Thanks, Rick b
Rick. So are you saying that if your concept of God is not right your going to go to hell? That doesn't sound like the loving savior you speak of. If the only requirement is to believe then go find another group to torment because we believe! We believe that Christ is our savior and paid for our sins! Saved by grace! Done according to you! If we don't have a perfect knowledge of God that doesn't matter because grace will make up the rest!
As for ignoring scripture goes you've obviously been pointed to James 2:14-19 if you've been "bashing with Mormons" as much as you claim. Just try to explain your way out of James discourse of "...faith if it hath not works is dead being alone.". He even goes so far as to say "thou believest there is a God: thou doest well: the Devils also believe". Also why would Christ tell people to "sin no more" if they were saved as soon as they believe.
As for the Gods doctrine your ignoring MANY biblical references like psalms 82:6 "...ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most high" and don't forget one of my personal favorite Romans 8:17 "and if children then heirs; heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ..."
As for flesh and bone references you have first off Christ whom is God and you know was a man in flesh now returned to his Father... Well you believe they are all one in the same so that grows out the whole "light and mist" theory and proves he's got a body cause he walked and talked among men. What you think he changed when he left this earth. Then there is the whole "father" thing and were his offspring so you wouldn't think he was a horse or something different from us. The acts 17:29 "we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold or silver, or stone, graven art and mans device"... In other words use your head you idiot, he's your Dad! What do you think he looks like.
Oh ya and isaiah "saw the Lord sitting upon a throne" 6:1 hard to sit when your not a being. The psalmist wrote "when thou sadist, seek ye my face, thy face I did seek" 27:8 hard to seek a faceless face. "Enoch walked with God" (gen 5:24) and Jacob tells us "...I have seen god face to face... (gen 32:30) oh and it keeps going "...The Lord ...stood in the door..." and don't forget the best one cause you (Rick) have to ignore two truths in one scripture the acts 7:56 "...the son of man standing on the right hand of God...". (dispelling God and Jesus are one person). And maybe is just me but it's hard to look and someones face that doesn't exist and walk and talk with them and see them staining when they are not a being.
Now Rick you can be so happy cause someone has actually bashed with you! I hope these scriptures don't cause you too much heart burn, if they do just keep ignoring them.
You quote prophets words and argue them against scripture. Prophets, just like Moses, have weakness and are at the end of the day just a man. Were not saying that everything they have ever said is true! Were just saying the restored gospel as revealed through his prophets is true. Plus we believe! You can rest from your labors brother! We believe! Grace! Grace! Grace! It's all good! We need no works we've got grace so what's the concern?
Solace,
Rick and I have made a decision to keep our conversations related to food on our cooking blogs. We actually have become friends in this way. We don't discuss religion. Frankly, we can't have a coherent religious discussion, so this probably works best. :)
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