The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has just started its first online radio station. It's interesting that it is called "Mormon Radio" seeing that the church has tried to get away from that nickname in the past. I guess they decided it was a losing battle, so are giving in to the public given nickname, just trying to educate people that we are in fact Christian.
You can check out the new radio station by clicking this link. It actually looks pretty interesting, although I haven't spent much time with it yet. Check it out and tell me what you think.
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- Delirious
- Wife, mother, follower of Jesus Christ and LDS church member, former Taiwan missionary.
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16 comments:
Hi Delirious,
My dear...Mormon’s or LDS if you prefer are not “Christians” or better put genuine followers of Jesus meaning the Church. No insult intended but Mormonism is very different than being the Church in that there are clear difference on how one actually becomes a genuine follower of Jesus...
This is all perfectly fine...the Mormon religion can do its own thing and the followers of Jesus the Church can follow its mission...freedom is a wonderful thing...I think Mormonism would actually be more successful if its pushed its distinctives instead of trying to appear Christian....
Ah Livingsword, I can say one thing for you...you are consistent. Frankly, this is the main reason I have no desire to visit your blog. If we can't even agree on whether or not I am Christian, there is no reason for further discussion. You have shown me who you are... Best of luck to you with your worship though.
Hi Delirious…
Its great to hear your voice…
You and I are similar in some ways (which we could converse about if you like)…
You and I are very different in many ways one of those being that I enjoy conversing with persons that hold various points of view even if they are dramatically different or even completely opposed to my beliefs. Remember I did not become a follower of Jesus till my late 20’s so I know what it is like to be on the other side of the fence…back then I would have completely disagreed with my current position as I was an atheist.
I do not find it essential for you and me to hold all of the same beliefs to be friends or to visit your blog (or for that matter for you to visit mine). I enjoy and support the freedom to share ideas and ideals in the market place of thought which I believe you also do as you allowed my comment to be posted. However I also support your freedom to not visit my blog…that being said I would think it would be a good place for you to “fish”….
By the way please keep in mind that although I may disagree with an idea or belief of yours it does not mean I do not respect you as a person…I actually quite like you (or at least the “you” that blogs)…Believe it or not….
Well, I always thought that if you were a Christian, that meant you believed in Jesus Christ, that He is the Savior of the World and the Only Begotten of the Father, and that in believing in Him you followed His teachings that are in the Bible. If so, then Mormons are indeed Christians, since that is the basis for our religion.
Hi Nene nice to meet you….
Interesting premise…before I get deeper into the issue (which I am more than willing to do) let me ask a couple of basic questions that beg…
If Mormonism really is the same as Biblical Christianity (genuine Jesus following) and if Mormonism really sees itself as Christian…the same as say Protestants and if the Mormons are truly feeling aggrieved because they are the same then why evangelize Protestants? Why not drop the whole Mormon thing and join Protestant Churches?
After all if we really are all Christian’s there is no need for Mormonism to evangelize us and there is no reason to worship in your own building. Sell off all the Mormon buildings and give all the money to any Protestant denomination.
However Mormonism pours different meaning into words like grace and faith and names such as Jesus as in Who He is and what He has done and will be doing…etc…
Well Ls, the reason we would not do that is because after the death of the original twelve apostles, the Priesthood of God was lost from the Earth. Those churches you mentioned do not have that priesthood authority. It was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith under the hands of John the Baptist and Peter, James and John. If we joined your churches, we would not have the Priesthood authority.
Joseph Smith himself had prayed to know which church he should join. God told him not to join any of them, that He would restore the ancient church in it's fullness through Joseph Smith. We have everything those other churches have, and more.
Hi Delirious…
Excellent! I know you are giving an accurate representation of official Mormonism which is great! Something I always appreciate about you…
This makes the point wonderfully, thank you so much. Mr. Smith denied the authority of God’s Church and started his own competing organization Mormonism. Of course Christians believe Mr. Smith was a false prophet (similar to Muhammad).
So Mormonism is in competition with the Christian Church and the two are irreconcilable similarly to Islam and the Christian Church. All of this is fine we can peacefully coexist with freedom of beliefs.
It also decimates any argument that Mormonism wants to make in regards to being called “Christian” by the Christian Church.
LS, you are assuming that the "church" was God's. We believe that the church that Jesus Christ established was lost from the Earth through apostasy. The church that evolved after the death of the apostles was the Catholic church, from which all other Christian churches sprang. The Protestants and Methodists split off from the Catholic church. So in reality, either the Catholic Church had the authority, or ours does, all others merely split off from these two. The Bible foretold an apostasy, and we believe it did occur, causing what is known as the "dark ages". The original church was lost from the earth, and needed to be restored. So many truths and ordinances were restored when the original church was restored through Joseph Smith. Joseph did not "start his own church", but was the prophet through whom God restored the original church. "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" Amos 3:7 We believe this is the true church of God. All others are churches made of men, trying the best they can to follow Jesus and be good Christians with the limited knowledge that they have. We do not criticize them for their efforts, they are doing the best they can to be good Christians. Many of them are far better Christians than I am. I still have many weaknesses that I am working on.
We allow all men the freedom and right to worship how they desire. We also allow them the opportunity to assert whatever beliefs they will, and respect them for that. We believe that anyone who worships Jesus Christ, no matter how their doctrine might differ from ours, is a Christian. We may not believe their's is God's true church, but we do believe they are His followers, the same as us.
You think that we aren't Christians just because we don't follow the churches split off from the Catholic church. We believe that "no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron" Joseph Smith was called as was Aaron, and the priesthood authority was restored through him.
You often make comments that you think we are both similar in our conviction if only I wasn't in a religious sense on the wrong path. LS, I would assert to you that I have found the true path. I have prayed to God, and I know, without doubt that this is His true church. God has already communicated that to me. The more I discuss this with you, the more my beliefs are strengthened. I have all of the puzzle pieces. I have all of the ordinances and doctrine. I would suggest that maybe you should think more deeply about what I have told you, and ask God for yourself, for I have done this already, it's your turn. :) I noticed that in our past discussions, you didn't really read what I wrote. You simply restated the same scriptures and arguments over and over. I can tell by this last comment you made, that you really haven't read what I wrote on your blog. I encourage you to lay aside your preconceived notions, and think deeply about what I have already told you.
YOu once were athiest, and could not even conceive that there could be a God. I think you could take it to the next level. Now that you are a Christian, try to consider the fact that an apostasy occurred, as was foretold in the scriptures, and that a restoration had to happen. I cannot instill in you an open mind, but if you will ask God with a sincere heart, with real intent, and humble yourself to hear His word, He can manifest the truth to you, just as He has to me.
Livingsword, if you're still reading this, I'm just going to say two things more. 1) The name of our church is: The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints. Since we believe in the same organization that existed in the church Jesus established when he was on the earth, we have the same organization as he did, only we are His saints in the Latter-days.
2) God and Jesus Christ personally appeared to Joseph Smith and restored Christ's church on this earth. In Joseph's words: "...I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me, and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true: and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth?...For I had seen a vision; I knew it and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it..."Livingsword, I too have prayed, like Delirious, and I have a testimony that this church is true. I do believe that all the other churches in this world have some truth, but our church has the whole truth, simply because it was fully restored. After the death of the Apostles, the original church was changed and was not the same church that Jesus had established.
I too, challenge you to pray and ask the Lord to help you find the truth.
Part 2
I could also simply claim that Mormonism is apostasy…however I am glad you admit that you believe we are apostasy. If we are apostasy then it would be wrong for you to call us Christians or the Church. Just as from our point of view Mormonism is apostasy etc…so why all this concern about whether we think you are Christians? Mormonism denies the Christian Church and we deny Mormonism. I would never say Mr.Smith started his “own church” (if you mean the genuine high cap Church) you see no human is capable of starting his own Church. I would say Mr. Smith started his own religious organization. When Mr.Smith said the genuine Christian Church was in apostasy he was criticizing the Church and indeed saying we are not Christians…God’s Church:
Apostasy: a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.
- - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apostasy
Delirious you have struck upon one of the major issues that separates Mormonism from the genuine Christian Church you said “I still have many weaknesses that I am working on.” I am certain that you are a kind and wonderful person devout in your religious beliefs (I want to make clear here that I respect you as a person and for you to hold your personal beliefs). Yet here is a fundamental difference…genuine Jesus followers…the Biblical Church of God does not work at being religious in the sense that Mormonism teaches. Salvation and sanctification are not the same. Salvation comes at a moment in time and sanctification is God transforming our lives to Christ likeness through our lives after salvation…God does the work not us…now it can look as if we are doing the good works but really it is God…it is important to remember that we cannot do these works without Him.
Part 3
“We allow all men the freedom and right to worship how they desire. We also allow them the opportunity to assert whatever beliefs they will, and respect them for that. We believe that anyone who worships Jesus Christ, no matter how their doctrine might differ from ours, is a Christian. We may not believe their's is God's true church, but we do believe they are His followers, the same as us.”
- Delirious…if we are apostasy we are not Christians…Mr.Smith said we are apostasy…The Jesus of Mormonism is not the same person as the Jesus of the Christian Church we are not worshiping the same God. Once again I do support the freedom to worship whatever god you like…
“You think that we aren't Christians just because we don't follow the churches split off from the Catholic church. We believe that "no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron" Joseph Smith was called as was Aaron, and the priesthood authority was restored through him.”
- The Biblical Christian Church declares that Mormonism is not Christian because its teaching is in conflict with the Bible particularly in how a person actually becomes a genuine Jesus follower. If we think the official teachings of Mormonism in regard to the basics of salvation are tragically in error it would be wrong for us to call Mormons Christians. This is a conversation we have had before (and one I never weary of) the way a person becomes a genuine follower of Jesus is different in Mormonism from the real Biblical Christian Church.
Part 4
“You often make comments that you think we are both similar in our conviction if only I wasn't in a religious sense on the wrong path.”
- Actually I do not believe our convictions are the same. What I appreciate about you is your zeal and passion although I admit I believe they are misguided as you would say of mine. I respect the way you will stand up for what you believe is true even if I disagree with your ideas. I think you are a nice person that is trying to be moral. I also like your photography…
“LS, I would assert to you that I have found the true path. I have prayed to God, and I know, without doubt that this is His true church. God has already communicated that to me. The more I discuss this with you, the more my beliefs are strengthened. I have all of the puzzle pieces. I have all of the ordinances and doctrine. I would suggest that maybe you should think more deeply about what I have told you, and ask God for yourself, for I have done this already, it's your turn. :)
- Delirious I have already studied the Mormon books…for example I have the 4 Book of Mormon’s sitting on my shelf that I have read. I have prayed about it and as I mentioned in a past conversation I was told by God that…well let me just say that Mormonism is not True and is therefore not from God. Now you may say that my search was not genuine and that’s fine…I know differently and it is my life and it is my experience. At a moment in time I was saved by god’s grace alone through faith alone in Jesus alone (that’s Biblical salvation) and since that instant He has been transforming my life as all who know me would testify (that’s sanctification).
By the way I don’t know if you have read this on my blogs…my blogging is not about being evangelistic…my blogging is about glorifying God…He deserves ALL the credit for my salvation and sanctification…I thank Him for the free gift…
Part 5
“I noticed that in our past discussions, you didn't really read what I wrote. You simply restated the same scriptures and arguments over and over. I can tell by this last comment you made, that you really haven't read what I wrote on your blog. I encourage you to lay aside your preconceived notions, and think deeply about what I have already told you.”
- Oh my….well this is a misunderstanding…you see I actually spend a lot of time thinking and praying over comments and actually quite a bit on your comments and posts for that matter…this is one of the reasons at times my replies are rather tardy…I believe what happens is we often pack different meanings in to various words. Mormons use much of the same words as Christians but what we both mean in our words are actually quite different at times and they need a lot of unpacking. I use the Bible a lot as it is God’s Word. I hold Scripture in very high regard indeed…
Delirious…I say this in a gentle whisper…when one holds the Bible in serious dignified belief as the Word of God in all honesty the books of Mormonism just don’t stand up. Mormonism’s attack upon Biblical salvation, sanctification, the Bible alone as His Word and the Triunity of God are each alone enough to…well I am at a lack of words to say how horrid it makes a Jesus follower feel…
“YOu once were athiest, and could not even conceive that there could be a God. I think you could take it to the next level. Now that you are a Christian, try to consider the fact that an apostasy occurred, as was foretold in the scriptures, and that a restoration had to happen. I cannot instill in you an open mind, but if you will ask God with a sincere heart, with real intent, and humble yourself to hear His word, He can manifest the truth to you, just as He has to me.”
- If Mormonism were true I would become a Mormon…however I find the evidence to be to the contrary. Query…are you more interested in evangelism or truth?
A pleasure conversing with you Delirious! It is a beautiful day here in Vancouver and I have enjoyed sitting here on the patio under the blue sky sipping lemonade and talking with you via my lap top…
Hi Nene…
Very interesting….
Well as Delirious knows I have read Mr.Smith’s Book of Mormon 4 times plus I have read Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. I have studied (not just read but studied) my way through the Old Testament 29 times and the New Testament literally hundreds of times.
I have prayed the prayer you speak of and found no “burning” in my “bosom”. Indeed I found it was clear to me that Mr.Smith’s Book of Mormon was not from God…much the opposite actually…of course Mr.Smith tells us in the intro to his Book of Mormon about said book (and I quote):
“And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.”
I do not blame God for Mr.Smith’s book…it is Mr.Smith’s book and the faults and mistakes are his. As Mr.Smith’s book competes with God’s Word the Bible which I find to truly be the Word of God I then denounce Mr.Smith’s personal creative enterprise.
I am not here to evangelize you but I suggest studying the Bible you may particularly find Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians to be most helpful…and as you gifted me with a quote from Mr.Smith’s Book of Mormon allow me to return the favour…
I do not treat the grace of God as meaningless. For if keeping the law could make us right with God, then there was no need for Christ to die.
- - Galatians 3:21
"He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matt. 16:15-19
The "rock" which Christ spoke of wasn't the church, but "revelation". Peter had received his testimony that Jesus was the Savior through revelation. Revelation would be the "rock" upon which the church would be built, and Peter would be the prophet to receive that revelation. You are right that the church belogns to Jesus Christ. That is why our church is named, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints".
--The apostles already saw signs of an apostasy when they were still alive, and prophesied that there would be further apostasy. Apostasy means a departure from the teachings. This is exactly what happened. We can see this in the fact that so many Christian churches have different beliefs. And many teachings were entirely lost. I absolutely believe that an apostasy occurred. "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" 2 Thess. 2:4
11 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: Amos 8:11
Clearly we can't discuss this point further because our positions are entirely opposite.
--An apostate is someone who turns from the truth. In the case of the Christian churches today, they are not people who turned from the truth. They are people who never had the fulness of truth, but who are worshipping the best they can with the truth that is available to them. Therefore, I think it completely reasonable that they shouldn't be referred to as apostates, but followers of Christ.
--Our view of being a follower has to do with following what Jesus taught. He said that we must be baptized. We in our church are baptized for the remission of sins, thereby becoming followers of Jesus Christ and taking upon us His name. We are a "real biblical church" because we follow the bible.
...part 2 to come ;)
--It's so interesting to me that you claim we aren't worshipping the same Jesus as you. We worship Jesus Christ, the son of the living God. You can pretend we don't if you like, but that is the fact of the matter. Just because our understanding of the bible is different from yours, doesn't mean we don't worship Jesus Christ.
--You say we aren't Christian because we believe in repentance. Does that mean that you also don't allow other Christian churches that believe in repentance the opportunity to be called Christian? Because we do believe in the grace of Jesus Christ, but we believe it is accessed through repentance. Faith in Jesus Christ, without works, is dead.
--This I can say: I have received my answer from God. I can't judge your answer, I can only go by mine. And God has spoken to me and told me that Joseph Smith was a Prophet, just like prophets of old, and that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, another testament of Jesus Christ. Would you have me deny God? I can never deny the testimony He has blessed me with. You can follow whatever path you feel you have been called to follow, but I must do the same. I have come to know God, and I feel his spirit distilling in my life. I am so blessed by being a member of this church and a disciple of Jesus Christ. I could never forsake that.
Quite frankly, I really have no desire to continue talking with you. It's not that I don't enjoy talking with people of different beliefs. I do that quite often. It's mainly because I feel such disrespect from you about my beliefs. You share scriptures with me and I see them an entirely different way. You tell me I'm something that I"m not, and that I believe something that I don't. You simply do not understand our religion, no matter how much you have studied it. If you really understood, you wouldn't make so many negative statements. The very fact that you insist we aren't Christian is the ultimate disrespect to me. I have many opportunities to speak with bloggers who can respectfully listen to my opinions, and respectfully share theirs'. You and I look at the world in entirely different ways, and will never converge as long as you deny I"m a Christian. So frankly, I see no need to continue. You can leave whatever comments you like, but frankly, I'm only interested in conversing with those who can agree that I'm a follower of Jesus Christ.
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